Lear 60 approach category?

[tapcon]

Radius

Viffer is right. Certification is what the manufacturor gets the aircraft certified to. If you choose to fly ref + 20 everyday you have to follow the category you choose to fly at. Thats why the numbers are there for you to see. Radius of turn is what those numbers are predicated on. A learjet in Truckee forgot about that and they are no more.

 

[TxPilot0878]

Viffer,
I agree with some of what you are saying but you contradict yourself a little bit

A 60 would need to go to very high bank angles to keep the granite out of the windshield, and yes I have flown a 60 for a year.

a steep turn yes in a 23/24/25/31/35 (yes of course 28's and the other loose variable still floating around) the 60 would have the largest radius due to the max gross landing weight...the heavier the a/c the larger the turn......so fly ref and be a Cat C aircraft if terrain is a concern.....

............but your comment on the go around....leaves me confused........

If you ever had to do a low altitude go around there you are going to need every bit of turn you can get, and a Lear 60 would be the last choice of airplane I would want to be in.

as compared to what????....of the jets and pistons I have flown...the 1:to almost 1 TTW ratio is a super warm fuzzy that I love to have. Yes your turn are steeper but so is your climb and if you are at your altitude at the beginning of the missed....then isn't all well?!?!?!

Point is I like some of what you said but as far as an aircraft for missed or go around reasons I think the Lear 60 is a little higher up the list than the bottom!

Thanks for the post....got me thinking about some things I hadn't in a while!!!

Regards,

Tex

 

[doublepsych]

Viffer,
the 60 would have the largest radius due to the max gross landing weight...the heavier the a/c the larger the turn......

Tex

sorry tex, this is false...

think bank angle and TAS

not trying to be a wise guy...

 

[Viffer]

a steep turn yes in a 23/24/25/31/35 (yes of course 28's and the other loose variable still floating around) the 60 would have the largest radius due to the max gross landing weight...the heavier the a/c the larger the turn......so fly ref and be a Cat C aircraft if terrain is a concern.....

............but your comment on the go around....leaves me confused........

as compared to what????....of the jets and pistons I have flown...the 1:to almost 1 TTW ratio is a super warm fuzzy that I love to have. Yes your turn are steeper but so is your climb and if you are at your altitude at the beginning of the missed....then isn't all well?!?!?!

Well, Think about it this way. I am talking about doing a rejected landing at Aspen, on final to 15 at one mile from the runway, so this is well off the approach and down in the valley. Now, having done this I can tell you that even in a musch more maneuverable straight wing Citation you are going to be banking well over 30 deg, and even at 30 deg you should never be flying right at ref! Remember that your stall speed, and ref, are a factor of bank angle and at 30 to 40 Deg bank you better be flying above the straight in landing ref. This also greatly affects your turn radius. So, there is no approach course or missed approach procedure from this point, it's a visual only once you leave the 161 radial from DBL so any escape maneuvers you had better be aware of in advance once you go down into the valley. So you have the combination of much higher required airspeed, increased turning radius, and terrain on three sides to have to turn inside of while climbing to get away from. The 60 is an airplane I would refuse to take into Aspen for these reasons alone. Basically, there are no guarantee's even in severe cavu that you won't have to reject close in and low, and do something like this. It was a rather unpleasant suprise for us that day, and also something I had never really thought about either.

 

[Rokit88]

Viffer-

I have done a close-in go around in a 60 in ASE. It was CAVU. The guy in front of me (old WW2 spitfire) didn't get his lollygagging ass off the runway in time. The GA was no big deal. As long as your VFR, its not a problem. And with the 60s power? I'll take the ability to climb like a banshee over anything else.

 

[Mercury]

Explanation form the AIM:
5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures
a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certificated landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certificated landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. Helicopters are Category A aircraft. An aircraft must fit in only one category. Pilots are responsible for determining and briefing which category minimums will be used for each instrument approach. If a higher approach speed is used on final that places the aircraft in a higher approach category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. Approaches made with inoperative flaps, circling approaches at higher-than normal straight-in approach speeds, and approaches made in icing conditions for some types of airplanes are all examples of situations that can necessitate the use of a higher approach category. See the following category limits:
1. Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.
2. Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.
3. Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.
4. Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.
5. Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.


And FWIW, I was taught to set "blue2" 12 knots above the Vref bug and target Blue2 during the circling procedure. The circling mins are based on the max KIAS and the tangential (sp) arcs for obstacle clearance that are specified in the AIM. Basically a larger radius of turn.

More from the AIM:

b. Obstacle Clearance. Final approach obstacle clearance is provided from the start of the final segment to the runway or missed approach point, whichever occurs last. Side-step obstacle protection is provided by increasing the width of the final approach obstacle clearance area.
1. Circling approach protected areas are defined by the tangential connection of arcs drawn from each runway end. The arc radii distance differs by aircraft approach category. Because of obstacles near the airport, a portion of the circling area may be restricted by a procedural note: e.g., "Circling NA E of RWY 17-35." Obstacle clearance is provided at the published minimums for the pilot that makes a straight-in approach, side-steps, circles, or executes the missed approach. Missed approach obstacle clearance requirements may dictate the published minimums for the approach. (See FIG 5-4-23.)​

[SIZE=-2]FIG 5-4-23 [/SIZE]
Final Approach Obstacle Clearance

​

 

[vixin]

What Rokit88 said. Flex uses higher then published mins for ASE. Thats why its no big deal in a 60. I have gone missed there a few times and never had an issue. In order for us to do the approach we need 4500/6. And its not 2000fpm if you do the full approach it can get as high as almost 6000fpm if I am not mistaken. Thats why we use the higher then published mins. No see at Allix, no land, that simple. Head over to EGE and relax. Not taking a 60 into ASE is just silly. Its not an issue if you use your grey particle matter. Done it a couple of hundred times never was skeered (mispelled on purpose for the grammar police).