Lear 60 approach category?

[RVflyer]

Is the Lear 60 a category C or D airplane? Would a straight in approach or circling approach change the approach category? Does the AFM list the approach category or where can I find this info?

Thanks,

RVflyer

 

[Bandit60]

Just look at the approach speed at max gross weight for a straight in appoach. That will tell you the approach cat for the airplane. If it is below 141 then you are a cat c if at any time you must configure the airplane so that the approach speed is faster say with flaps 20 then you must raise your catagory to the the next higher cat.
I hope that helped.

 

[gslippett]

Approach category is based on 1.3xVso for an aircraft at max landing weight in landing configuration for straight in minimums....This never changes....If you are manuevering..... for example circling..... then your category is predicated upon indicated airspeed therefore your category can change.Manuals may recommend category minimums for circling but again it is based on KIAS.

 

[CAVOK69]

121-140 for straight in so cat C for circling you are D at high landing weights if you are using the correct min manuever speed. In the lear 60 if my memory is correct, we used landing flaps for circling approaches to keep us in cat D, that way we didnt have to use cat E mins.

A -90
B 91-120
C 121-140
D 141-165
E above 165

 

[RVflyer]

Hey guys,

Thank you for your helpful responses, so here is another question.

The LJ60 has a Vref of 139KIAS @ the max ldg. weight of 19,500lbs. If we fly a straight in approach at Vref + 10 (149KIAS) we would have to use Cat. D minimums. So can a LJ60 get into an airport like Rifle, Colorado (RIL) that has no Cat. D minimums by flying the ILS at Vref down to Cat C minimums. I believe most of us fly at Vref + 10. And it looks like Aspen would be a no go in the LJ60 unless it is VFR all the way down from the MEA.

 

[vixin]

FlexJet uses CAT C at all times in the 60. Not being able to get into ASE unless it is VFR in a 60...Now thats funny. We go into RIL all the time also.

 

[CAVOK69]

I would suggest using the cat. that applies to your ref. If you fly a portion of the approach at ref +10, then .....well, just fly it at ref unless it is gusty.

 

[ultrarunner]

Hey guys,

Thank you for your helpful responses, so here is another question.

The LJ60 has a Vref of 139KIAS @ the max ldg. weight of 19,500lbs. If we fly a straight in approach at Vref + 10 (149KIAS) we would have to use Cat. D minimums. So can a LJ60 get into an airport like Rifle, Colorado (RIL) that has no Cat. D minimums by flying the ILS at Vref down to Cat C minimums. I believe most of us fly at Vref + 10. And it looks like Aspen would be a no go in the LJ60 unless it is VFR all the way down from the MEA.

RV, see gslippett response. Category is a "certification issue". Simple as that.

The folks that "certified" the aircraft for a particular category have NO control over how you "fly" the plane.

Because you, or anyone else, decides to fly a 'straight-in' at 900 kts does NOT change the fact that the plane was certified to fly a straight-in approach, in landing config, at Cat C speeds.

Got it?

 

[MNR]

Shooting that approach into Aspen in a 60 is tight. I'm sure vixin and flexjet can do it all day, good for them, but I would think twice about shooting those approaches into ASE. Its not just circling radius you have to think about its also the decent rate. At the 60s Ref speeds you are looking at 2000+ fpm down. I don't know if that would be considered normal or very comfortable for the passengers. I use Cat D min for the 60 when circling.

 

[Viffer]

Shooting that approach into Aspen in a 60 is tight. I'm sure vixin and flexjet can do it all day, good for them, but I would think twice about shooting those approaches into ASE. Its not just circling radius you have to think about its also the decent rate. At the 60s Ref speeds you are looking at 2000+ fpm down. I don't know if that would be considered normal or very comfortable for the passengers. I use Cat D min for the 60 when circling.

Turning radius can be the biggest factor there in my view. If you ever had to do a low altitude go around there you are going to need every bit of turn you can get, and a Lear 60 would be the last choice of airplane I would want to be in. I've had to go missed due to a small Cessna the tower forced in front of us at a mile from the runway. Making that low altitude climbing turn down in the valley is an eye opener, and a low turn radius is essential. A 60 would need to go to very high bank angles to keep the granite out of the windshield, and yes I have flown a 60 for a year. The guys that never consider this kind of maneuver, or have never had to do one, wouldn't see any issue with the 60 in ASE and probably would think less of the pilots who choose not to put their plane into those airports. Approach category is not a certification only issue, if you're going fast you better use the correct minimums or you don't have obstacle clearance. Simple enough.

 

[tapcon]

Radius

Viffer is right. Certification is what the manufacturor gets the aircraft certified to. If you choose to fly ref + 20 everyday you have to follow the category you choose to fly at. Thats why the numbers are there for you to see. Radius of turn is what those numbers are predicated on. A learjet in Truckee forgot about that and they are no more.

 

[TxPilot0878]

Viffer,
I agree with some of what you are saying but you contradict yourself a little bit

A 60 would need to go to very high bank angles to keep the granite out of the windshield, and yes I have flown a 60 for a year.

a steep turn yes in a 23/24/25/31/35 (yes of course 28's and the other loose variable still floating around) the 60 would have the largest radius due to the max gross landing weight...the heavier the a/c the larger the turn......so fly ref and be a Cat C aircraft if terrain is a concern.....

............but your comment on the go around....leaves me confused........

If you ever had to do a low altitude go around there you are going to need every bit of turn you can get, and a Lear 60 would be the last choice of airplane I would want to be in.

as compared to what????....of the jets and pistons I have flown...the 1:to almost 1 TTW ratio is a super warm fuzzy that I love to have. Yes your turn are steeper but so is your climb and if you are at your altitude at the beginning of the missed....then isn't all well?!?!?!

Point is I like some of what you said but as far as an aircraft for missed or go around reasons I think the Lear 60 is a little higher up the list than the bottom!

Thanks for the post....got me thinking about some things I hadn't in a while!!!

Regards,

Tex

 

[doublepsych]

Viffer,
the 60 would have the largest radius due to the max gross landing weight...the heavier the a/c the larger the turn......

Tex

sorry tex, this is false...

think bank angle and TAS

not trying to be a wise guy...

 

[Viffer]

a steep turn yes in a 23/24/25/31/35 (yes of course 28's and the other loose variable still floating around) the 60 would have the largest radius due to the max gross landing weight...the heavier the a/c the larger the turn......so fly ref and be a Cat C aircraft if terrain is a concern.....

............but your comment on the go around....leaves me confused........

as compared to what????....of the jets and pistons I have flown...the 1:to almost 1 TTW ratio is a super warm fuzzy that I love to have. Yes your turn are steeper but so is your climb and if you are at your altitude at the beginning of the missed....then isn't all well?!?!?!

Well, Think about it this way. I am talking about doing a rejected landing at Aspen, on final to 15 at one mile from the runway, so this is well off the approach and down in the valley. Now, having done this I can tell you that even in a musch more maneuverable straight wing Citation you are going to be banking well over 30 deg, and even at 30 deg you should never be flying right at ref! Remember that your stall speed, and ref, are a factor of bank angle and at 30 to 40 Deg bank you better be flying above the straight in landing ref. This also greatly affects your turn radius. So, there is no approach course or missed approach procedure from this point, it's a visual only once you leave the 161 radial from DBL so any escape maneuvers you had better be aware of in advance once you go down into the valley. So you have the combination of much higher required airspeed, increased turning radius, and terrain on three sides to have to turn inside of while climbing to get away from. The 60 is an airplane I would refuse to take into Aspen for these reasons alone. Basically, there are no guarantee's even in severe cavu that you won't have to reject close in and low, and do something like this. It was a rather unpleasant suprise for us that day, and also something I had never really thought about either.

 

[Rokit88]

Viffer-

I have done a close-in go around in a 60 in ASE. It was CAVU. The guy in front of me (old WW2 spitfire) didn't get his lollygagging ass off the runway in time. The GA was no big deal. As long as your VFR, its not a problem. And with the 60s power? I'll take the ability to climb like a banshee over anything else.

 

[Mercury]

Explanation form the AIM:
5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures
a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certificated landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certificated landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. Helicopters are Category A aircraft. An aircraft must fit in only one category. Pilots are responsible for determining and briefing which category minimums will be used for each instrument approach. If a higher approach speed is used on final that places the aircraft in a higher approach category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. Approaches made with inoperative flaps, circling approaches at higher-than normal straight-in approach speeds, and approaches made in icing conditions for some types of airplanes are all examples of situations that can necessitate the use of a higher approach category. See the following category limits:
1. Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.
2. Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.
3. Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.
4. Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.
5. Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.


And FWIW, I was taught to set "blue2" 12 knots above the Vref bug and target Blue2 during the circling procedure. The circling mins are based on the max KIAS and the tangential (sp) arcs for obstacle clearance that are specified in the AIM. Basically a larger radius of turn.

More from the AIM:

b. Obstacle Clearance. Final approach obstacle clearance is provided from the start of the final segment to the runway or missed approach point, whichever occurs last. Side-step obstacle protection is provided by increasing the width of the final approach obstacle clearance area.
1. Circling approach protected areas are defined by the tangential connection of arcs drawn from each runway end. The arc radii distance differs by aircraft approach category. Because of obstacles near the airport, a portion of the circling area may be restricted by a procedural note: e.g., "Circling NA E of RWY 17-35." Obstacle clearance is provided at the published minimums for the pilot that makes a straight-in approach, side-steps, circles, or executes the missed approach. Missed approach obstacle clearance requirements may dictate the published minimums for the approach. (See FIG 5-4-23.)​

[SIZE=-2]FIG 5-4-23 [/SIZE]
Final Approach Obstacle Clearance

​

 

[vixin]

What Rokit88 said. Flex uses higher then published mins for ASE. Thats why its no big deal in a 60. I have gone missed there a few times and never had an issue. In order for us to do the approach we need 4500/6. And its not 2000fpm if you do the full approach it can get as high as almost 6000fpm if I am not mistaken. Thats why we use the higher then published mins. No see at Allix, no land, that simple. Head over to EGE and relax. Not taking a 60 into ASE is just silly. Its not an issue if you use your grey particle matter. Done it a couple of hundred times never was skeered (mispelled on purpose for the grammar police).