Lear 35 Capt. position available

[Timebuilder]

Must be nice to be in a position to be able to say that. There are plenty of people that would like to have that job.

True.

However, if we keep on bending over and wh@ring ourselves out to these sleazeball operators, then these wages will stick in the industry for a very long time. Taking this kind of job helps to depress wages across the board, and guarantees that the next job, the one you want after this one, may begin to creep down in value instead of moving along with inflation.

Bottom line: if no one is desperate enough to take this job, they will be forced to offer better pay. If every low timer with a type rating shows up ready and willing to take a jet PIC job for less than a good SIC position's value, then this kind of job will replicate itself throughout the industry like a virus. This is supply and demand, and you can help to control the supply by refusing to even apply for these bottom feeder positions.

Only the actions of every pilot can be the determinant of the future of aviation: stand as one, and control the future. Every man for himself, and we all paddle in a cesspool.

Your choice.

My choice? This guy won't get a resume from me. No now, not when I'm typed, not ever.

Period.

 

[Citationkid]

If you think that is bad I just saw a job on climbto350.com for a lear 35 capt for 28,000 a year and you have to pay for your own type. Now that is bad.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree.

What is worse than the offer is the response that they will get from inexperienced pilots who don't have a clue about what this does to pilot wages and benefits. They are convinced that this will advance their career and get them a juicy seniority number sooner as opposed to later.

What they don't know is that they may never get that union job, and will have to live with the operators that they are enabling in this type of operation right now, along with those many operators who are influenced by this kind of business model.

 

[135fr8r]

I remember when I had 200 hours, and would have given anything to fly the equipment I fly now. Hell, I remember when I had 1500/500 after flying checks, barely meeting insurance mins for the Lear and Falcon, but I never once said I`ll take the RJ for $18,000 a year. Needless to say, I would never accept a Lear Captain position for $35,000. I was making $36,000 a year as an F/O on the Lear, and no this wasn`t some rich Pax charter operation. This was flying freight in old beat up Lears, but they thought well enough of their people to pay them what they were worth. Some of our Captains who had been with the company for 4 years were making $100,000 a year. Even so after 911. I would like to see that 300 hour guy get the job. I`d like to see him try to keep the thing on the runway during takeoff roll.

I don`t say all of this to be an ass, but people please don`t become whores just to fly fast complex equipment. I guarantee anyone who would take that job will bitch about the salary 2 months later.

 

[Bob]

I, for one, am tired of companies that are in essence saying; "You were stupid enough to become a pilot, you deserve to be treated like crap!" That's what these companies are saying when they post jobs that pay that poorly. Let the son's of bitches fly 'em themselves. The problem is, if one pilots drops his drawers and bends over, they expect us all to follow suit.


List them here ----> http://www.bad-aviationjobs.com

 

[Scarecrow]

Idea

This may come off a little corn-ball. I really don't mean it that way. I'm just fed up with this crap.

Lets do an Arlo Guthrie on these friggin idiots (or was it Woody -- I was kind of young -- fetal). We can drown these low-ball, scum-bag, a$$hole operators in resumes and apps -- hundreds. Build up their hopes, then make their lives hell. laugh at their employment offer when compensation comes up.

We can start a movement. Break 'em. They may eventually find someone to fill their poisition. But they'll have to work to do it. And maybe, just maybe -- we'll be able to force some of these guys to raise their wages.

Hell it sounds fun. I'm gonna do it myself. What's the contact info for this company. May as well start with them. I couldn't find much on "Bad Aviation Jobs."

 

[Flyjets]

Not an easy thing to do with 3 kids. My mom and dad are divorced so that means that both of them would have to move so I could still spend equal time with them. [/QUOTE]


Wow! I can't believe I just read this on this board.... I am stunned.

 

[Khirsah]

Allow me to preface this by stating that I have not started a family and at this point in time have no intention of doing so. But I know for a fact that it was possible for my mother to make a $1200 mortgage payment, drive a 2 year old car, pay the vast majority of her bills on time, and send 2 kids through private schools on less than $40,000/yr (inflation adjusted).

Look at the posts of Citationkid and see the future of aviation.

And what, pray tell, is so wrong with that?

We've all studied some basic personal finance, I assume, so lets figure this one out. As a single man living in the city I do, I can live very comfortably (read, drive a new car, afford a decent mortgage payment) on $30,000 a year.

And lets just say I'm a 30 year old Lear 35 captain making $45,000 a year (with COLAs) with a small part 91 operator. That means if I'm willing to plan ahead and spend responsibly I can sock away 15k a year.

And lets go ahead and retire at 65. If I have simply invested (I get a market average ROI), I walk away with about $5 million. If I have invested competently (say I beat market average by 1%), I retire with something in the neighborhood $7 million. If I have invested shrewdly (say I beat the market average by 2%) I walk away with around $11 million. At the low end, I don't ever have to touch the principal and I'm living like a king. At the high end I could afford to buy a brand new fully equipped T206 every year of my remaining life, never touch the principal, and live like a king.

So my question becomes, what is so inherently wrong with working for a wage that I myself deem much more than I need to live comfortably on?

The brotherhood of professional pilots? When we get down to the brass tacks, well, what's the percentage of professional pilots that have voted down concessionary contracts when their own livelihood was on the line?

Keeping the profession? Here's the way I see it (and the way many, many others I have met with dreams of a future in aviation see it), and this is where the whole future of aviation thing comes into play. I'd be getting paid....comfortably...to fly. And it's not about "flying a jet". It doesn't matter whether I'm flying a 152 or a 747. The scenario remains the same (assuming I'm getting paid the same).

And let me state, finally, that I am asking this as an honest question. I have no intention of starting a flame war. I do have the intention of starting an honest and civil debate.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You gotta enlighten...

Where in gods creation do you live that you can live "well" on 30K/yr...including a new car and a decent mortgage?....

..because Im going to move there and buy 4 Mac-Daddy houses and a Ferrari....

 

[135fr8r]

I want to know this myself. I would also like to know where your mom found a 2 year old car, and didn`t have to make a payment.

 

[Khirsah]

$80k mortgage at 8% over 30 years is going to cost you $590/month or $7080/year. You can get a somewhat decent cookie cutter home around here for around $80k.

Figure $1k a year for power and $1k a year for water. Those are both on the high side for where I live (Indiana) for an individual in a smaller house. I don't have info for gas bill, but we'll call it an even $1k too, though my thinking is that's way on the high side for my area.

So that's 10,080/year.

New or 1 year old car is, what, $400 a month for something not so bad (no ferrari, mind you). Additionally, my car insurance is $600/year.

So that's 5400/year + 10,080/year = 15,480/year

I spend $140/week on food, gas, and smokes for myself.

So that's 7280/year + 15,480/year = $22,760

Figure another $200/mo for entertainment and another $100/mo for unexpected expenses/things I haven't covered.

That's 3600/year + 22,760/year = 26,360

Those are all of the big expenses (remember, this job has health/dental bennies). I'm underbudget, but I'm cutting just a little bit. Not much. I've gone from living well to living on the high side of comfortable. If I mortage at 6% fixed today, I shave 1300 off and I'm underbudget by just shy of $5k.

Ooh. Forgot about taxes. Ehh...that screws me. That's about $9k in taxes. So I'm $4k overbudget.

But living "well" is a subjective thing. To me living well means, yeah, I can't go out and run up a $300 bar tab every night, but I can have fun. I can go out to a movie, or grab a couple beers with friends twice/thrice a week.

And in the end, though it would be a last resort option, I still have an extra $11,000 a year if a real emergency comes up. Yeah, I'm digging into my retirement, but if push comes to shove, it's there.

And lets redo the investment calculations.

$11k a year translates into 3 million/5 million/7.5 million at market/market+1%/market+2%. So I'll have to trade in those fully equipped T206s for stripped down straight 182s. That's still not bad.

But, my point in the end is, what ever happened to the idea that if I can do well on such and such a salary I should accept that salary? I keep hearing that we shouldn't let managements tell us what we're worth, but in the end should I have another pilot telling me what I'm worth? Let me determine my own worth. If I don't need nor especially want more than $45k a year to perform pilot services, why not leave me in peace to be happy with my $45k a year.

And again, as I can't stress this enough, this is not meant to be flamebait. I like the idea of intelligent discussion.


Edit: 135fr8r, I'm glad you asked. For most of that time, she was making payments. But later, her boyfriend at the time (later married) bought her a car. That's how she owned a 2 year old car without making payments

 

[Rick1128]

Khirsah, I think you need to rethink your math. First of all you forgot all the escrows on your mortgage payment. they run $3 - 400 a month. Plus all the little things you will need to do around the house. Then there is professional education and advancement. Plus retirement planning. 28K/yr just doesn't make it. Especially when an 18 y.o. wet nose kid can make close to that working at a fast food joint. Oh I forgot that the diddle grads have to pay off $50k+ in school loans.

CitationKid, I ran into the guy who was looking for a LR captain for 28K. He was still looking a couple of weeks ago. Offered me the job at 30K since I was typed and current. Was really shocked when I told him to stick it. His claim of it being a 'top wage' was really lame, especially when my employer pays nugget FOs over 30K a year to start.

Way too many of these cheap so and so's really don't understand that while you can get a cheap pilot, he generally costs you a lot more in the long run. Damaged equipment, excessive maintenance costs and fuel burns, large turn over, etc.

 

[Khirsah]

I don't know where you live, Rick, but if you're paying $400/mo on top of a mortgage payment for escrow on an $80,000 house your local lending institution/government/hazard insurance rep is bending you over the hood of an automobile.

Here in Indiana that payment's going to be a little over $100 a month, split about 70/30 between tax/hazard insurance. So yeah, you've just wiped out my savings from the 6% fixed.

And I mentioned unexpected expenses. If you're spending more than $1000 a year on home repair/maintenance, I'd think about moving.

As to professional education and advancement, could you explain to me what those entail? I didn't think about that. I have no goals beyond that $45k a year job. Like I said, I'd be on the high end of comfortable. No need for advancement. Professional education? I assume I'm not going to be paying for recurrent out of my own pocket.

I've covered retirement planning.

I didn't go to Riddle. I don't have $50k in school loans. The whole point of this was to let each pilot determine his or her own worth. You determine your worth. What you need to live, what you need to retire, etc. I'll determine mine. I don't give a rat's butt what any of you get paid, as long as you can survive comfortably on it. For me, that magic number is in the $45k range, giver or take a couple thousand. For others, it may be in the $75k range or higher. Cost of living differs from area to area. That will affect your current expenses and your retirement expenses. Your individual tastes and habits will affect those same expenses.

If a pilot wants a career where he or she makes $45k a year, more power to him/her. If he/she requires $100k a year to be happy, that's cool too.

Find your niche in flying, getting paid an amount that you want to be paid, and be happy with it. Don't turn around and say that getting paid $40k a year to fly a Learjet isn't enough. I'm quite capable of deciding that for myself when the time comes.

Yes, there are certain areas where it does ruin the profession. PFT, pay-for-recurrent, etc. But I draw the line at someone looking at my paycheck and cursing me.

I dunno. It may be a pipe dream. But it's one I wouldn't mind seeing people work toward. A real brotherhood of pilots. One where someone says, "Wow. He only makes $35k a year." and someone else responds, "Yeah, but he loves his job and plans on staying there. He's happy as a pig in $hit, so lets be happy for him."

 

[rettofly]

I dunno. It may be a pipe dream. But it's one I wouldn't mind seeing people work toward. A real brotherhood of pilots. One where someone says, "Wow. He only makes $35k a year." and someone else responds, "Yeah, but he loves his job and plans on staying there. He's happy as a pig in $hit, so lets be happy for him." [/B]

Khirsah: I like your attitude! I left a very lucrative non-flying career 5 years ago and I haven't looked back. Success is defined not by your income but by how happy you are while earning it. Although I'm between gigs at the moment, my "low paid" turboprop freight dog job (under 2 years to furlough) and my 3 year frax job (furlough since last May) have been the best 5 years of my professional life.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

80K mortgage?? Is this single or double wide??

I also guess that the trailer never needs repairs?
who maintains the trailer/landscaping...who buys a lawnmower?
Car never breaks?
You never date?
You eat Ramen noodles 7 days a week?
You never attend functions (weddings?)(funerals) ?
You dont buy xmas or b-day gifts?
Do you have hobbies?
Do you have basic cable?
Do you heat/cool the double wide?
Do you buy clothes?
Buy gas for the car?
Do you insure the car?
DO YOU GIVE TO CHARITY? (aside from this scumbag employer)
Do you buy Life Insurance? (aside from employers)
Do you pay for health insurance? You bet that scumbag employer does not pay 100%...
Gonna get married ever?
what if you knock up the toothless broad next door and she quits her Walmart job??

Man it sounds like you are cruising straight for the Jerry Springer Show..

budgeting $1000/yr for home repairs/maint??? You have NEVER owned a home my man.

All things to think about while living well there.....

Hey I understand what you are saying...one might be able to swing the mortgage/car on 30K but thats only part of the nut ya know......?

Stop trying to justify that one can be a "professional" on this type of pay. There is nothing professional about it....if thats an acceptable wage for you, go for it, just please do it quietly....its embarassing for all of us. These type of positions seem to always remain on the bottom and wont infect the rest of the business (I hope).

You may say "Brother - heck, Im flying so Im happy and thats all I care about".....well $hit karish, that brings tears to my eyes and all ....but some of us do this for a LIVING -- and towing our house around the country in search of that next beloved flight hour is not what we have worked so hard for.

 

[Flyjets]

All things to think about while living well there.....

Hey I understand what you are saying...one might be able to swing the mortgage/car on 30K but thats only part of the nut ya know......?

Stop trying to justify that one can be a "professional" on this type of pay. There is nothing professional about it....if thats an acceptable wage for you, go for it, just please do it quietly....its embarassing for all of us. These type of positions seem to always remain on the bottom and wont infect the rest of the business (I hope).

You may say "Brother - heck, Im flying so Im happy and thats all I care about".....well $hit karish, that brings tears to my eyes and all ....but some of us do this for a LIVING -- and towing our house around the country in search of that next beloved flight hour is not what we have worked so hard for.

[/B][/QUOTE]


Thank you for saying it before I had to. I was waiting on my blood pressure to go down a bit before I dove in.

 

[Rick1128]

Kirsh, girlfriends/wives and/or children are expensive. Home maintenance, even if you do the work yourself is not cheap. And you will not always be able to do it yourself. Local codes, your experience level, or just plain not having the time to do it. Have you priced a plumber or an electrican lately?

And that 80K, what type of neighborhood are you in? Can you be on the road for a week and come back to find all your property still in the house and not in some pawn shop? Can you sleep in your bed? Not on the floor as bullets go through your windows? Or walk out of your house to fly and find all four tires still inflated?

Plus you have to invest in yourself some also. Clothing, intellectual enlightenment, professional growth and so on.

You also have to set some aside for not only retirement, but also for the day the boss sells the airplane and you're out on the street, looking. It costs money to find a new job and to move.

The biggest problem I see is that you have set your goals and when you get there, it appears you are going to stop. The guys who stop growing professionally bother me. They are dangerous! And an accident or violation waiting to happen.

 

[Stearmandriver]

30K a year is ENOUGH?!?

Kirsah, I can see where your logic sounds good to you. I guess its maybe possible that I said something like this myself, once upon a time. Here's the thing though, dude: as a pilot, you are (or should be) a highly trained professional. This takes work, it takes money, and it involves responsibility. The guy greeting you when you walk into Walmart makes **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near 30K a year. So does a shift manager at McDonalds. So do floorhands at Home Depot. Let's compare their level of training to yours, as a lear captain. And responsibility? If you screw up at work, it doesn't just result in some numbers jumping into the wrong column in a ledger because of displeased customers (not personally greeted, got chicken nuggets instead of fries, nails on the wrong shelf etc.). If you screw up at work PEOPLE DIE. You honestly think that your level of training and responsibility doesn't qualify you for more money than a highschool dropout can earn?

It's good that you enjoy your profession. Know what? So do doctors. So do lawyers. So do engineers, and architects. So do countless other professionals. Pilots certainly aren't the only group of people who chose their profession based on what they like. I'll bet it would probably be pretty tough to pass the bar if what you were studying in preparation for it didn't interest you. But I PROMISE you that any of these people would be absolutely insulted to be offered 30K a year, even right out of school (not counting internships, but for an actual job that you are qualified to perform). Your level of training is about even with theirs. The seriousness of the consequences for screwing up varies from position to position, but I'll put it to ya this way: a doctor can only kill 'em one at a time. DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT!! You are worth more than 30K a year!!

Now... why do I care what you're willing to work for? Because it DOES affect me, contrary to what you seem to think. A few months ago, the pilots of Mesa airlines signed an incredibly sub-par contract to fly 50 seat RJ's. I fly for a large RJ operator, we have well over 200 airplanes and a route structure that spans 3 countries, 2 of em coast to coast. We're in contract talks, demanding mainline pay scales for the major airline flying we do. The day after Mesa signed, we had it thrown in our faces. "What do you MEAN you want real pay, Mesa just proved plenty of pilots are willing to do the work for less than what you CURRENTLY get!" And when the Mesa pilots were waffling, before they caved, the CEO of Mesa actually started up a non-union, alter ego carrier to do Mesa's flying for EVEN LESS, and they had NO trouble finding pilots! What the f*ck is WRONG with these people?

THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM NEEDS TO STOP, PEOPLE!

After 5 years with my company, I'm actively looking to bail and go corporate for a number of reasons, one of which is becasue I'm starting to wonder about the long-term viability of the airline industry. It is incredibly disheartening to learn that the same thing is going on on this side of the fence. I will completely leave this industry though, go back and get another degree and do something else entirely, before I'll work for wages like the ones you're discussing. Not only 'cause I'd be selling myself short, but because I'd be dragging down everyone else in the business.

Anyhow, best of luck to everyone. This is my first post, and I promise I'm not usually the bitter, arrogant guy I probably seem to be right now! I'm usually pretty pleasant. This just touched a nerve!

 

[Ultraman]

I once flew for a Part 91 company as co-pilot on a Turbo Commander. I started out making $18,000/year and after 5 1/2 years was up to a blistering $21,000/year.

The company didn't believe in training and when we (the crew) asked them about it, their response was, "once you learned to drive, you didn't go back to driving school."

It was only after the insurance company leaned on them pretty hard did they send the chief pilot to "school". They had a guy fly in to our base, give a two day ground school, then a quick flight in the airplane. When it was my turn to fly, the owners said, "no, only the chief pilot is going to get the training. It's too expensive for _____ to fly."

Not too long after this, I approached one of the owners about a pay increase. His response was, "you prima donna pilots think you are better than anyone else in this company. You will continue to make what you are making now regardless of how long you stay here. I don't know why you would even want to be here."

Needless to say, I wasn't there very much longer. This was in the early 1990's and there weren't many jobs available in aviation, so I took a job outside of the industry.

In about two years, I got another flying job which was much better than my previous one (it couldn't get much worse!!!!)

 

[aeronautic1]

Hey Khirsh (what is the origin of that name?), ever heard the phrase "if you pay peanuts, you get a monkey?" My best bud is in a 36 @ $70.000 per year. My first 135 F/O job in Lear was $36K so you obviously enjoy bending over and grabbing your ankles in Indiana. Typically, a captain worth his salt gets $60-65K. Go to Omnijet.com and you can view salary averages for numerous corporate jets. Let us know who you are flying for so we don't waste the stamp money sending them a resume. You must be flying for one of those low rent air ambulance companies that send you into known thunderstorm enviroments at 0300 with a radar that's been written up a month ago or you have to use windshield heat to keep the cabin below 09 @ 390. I am amazed that you aren't pissed being in the bargain basement section of the salary store. Heck, I know flight attendants that make $55K. Must be nice parking the Winnibago next to the hanger so you don't have to commute from someplace nice like Florida.