Lear 25D: Pros and cons please

[SpaceBall 1]

Westwind is more airplane and does more than the Lear, but operating cost will be the consideration.

CJ-610's are bullet proof, as most of the 20 series Lears are as well. But if parts are getting to be a concern for 20 series, then maybe a 30 series or Westwind will be a better choice. 35's are for grandpas though, just sayin, but then this isnt the 90's anymore either.

Man....you're gonna make me sentimental for my old Westwind!! We had some fun!!

 

[con-pilot]

For my 2 cents worth I would not consider any CJ-610 powered aircraft. Sorry, but that is just the way I see it.

As for your options, they are:

Westwind, preferably a Westwind II. Yeah, I know, it's ugly and not all that fast, but it does have an excellent range for that class of business jet. Also from what I understand there is still good parts support.

Saber 65, this would be my choice. As someone else mentioned, it still has great parts support. It is fast, same range as the Westwind II, but much nicer to fly and a lot better looking.

I have about a 1,000 hours in both the Westwind II and the Saber 65. However, in regard to the Falcon 10/100 I only have one takeoff and one landing on a demo flight, so I cannot address the Falcon, except it is an excellent flying aircraft, as all Falcons are.

Last time I checked the Saber 65 is a little more expensive to buy than the Westwind II, but as far as I am concerned the little extra for the 65 is worth it.

Anyway, good luck and have fun finding the right aircraft.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Westwinds I/II are a lot of bang for the buck....but again another airplane WAY past its useful, reliable life IMO.

I flew them about 10yrs ago and they were mx intensive and nose-diving in value.

Theres a reason these planes change hands so quickly. The estimated costs may sit OK with the new owner, until his 30+yr old pile of crap gets into an inspection or breaks 3X in a month.

Quite often with these things, someone really wants their own jet - but simply cant afford it.

And comparing looks between a Westwind and a Sabre?.....yikes thats like a fat, smelly, ugly chik contest. Throw the Astra and the Raytheon Premier in there and its as bad as it can get.

 

[NCherches]

...If he wants a Lear 25 why not look into VLJ's? They are about the same price(ish) and they will operate for nothing in comparison to an old airplane, probably will be more comfortable with more baggage if you dont need to squeeze more than 5 people on board.

 

[con-pilot]

Westwinds I/II are a lot of bang for the buck....but again another airplane WAY past its useful, reliable life IMO.

I flew them about 10yrs ago and they were mx intensive and nose-diving in value.

Theres a reason these planes change hands so quickly. The estimated costs may sit OK with the new owner, until his 30+yr old pile of crap gets into an inspection or breaks 3X in a month.

Quite often with these things, someone really wants their own jet - but simply cant afford it.

And comparing looks between a Westwind and a Sabre?.....yikes thats like a fat, smelly, ugly chik contest. Throw the Astra and the Raytheon Premier in there and its as bad as it can get.

I hate to say this, but you are quite correct about the Westwind II. I guess the reason I mentioned the Westwind/II is because there are a lot of them around here, there is a major maintenance facility for Westwinds here.

Sadly the same could be said about the 65, but as previously pointed out, the Saberliner support is exceptional and I still feel you get a lot more out of your money for 65 when compared to either of the Westwind aircraft. Last time I checked all Saber 65s are RVSM capable, I don't think you could say that for the Westwinds.

We replaced our 65 with a Falcon 50EX. The Sabre was on the market for quite some time and it finally sold in Mexico.

However, please remember this, just a few months ago a Sabre 65 set a new speed record for flying around the world for its type and class of aircraft. That ain't too bad for a 30 year old biz-jet.

 

[stupidpilot]

It might sound simple but the baggage capacity SUCKS! You have to load bags through the cabin (which was a lot of fun in 115 degree Arizona heat). and once the crew baggage is in there is room for about 2-3 small bags.

I think there's plenty of room in there if you know how to load it. Being an ex freight dog has its advantages when figuring out how many bags you can stuff back there..

 

[NCherches]

...You obviously haven't flown the biz-jet wives I have lol!!

 

[Tristar]

I never flew the 65, but the Sabreliner is a fantastic airplane. I don't think there is a better flying jet out there (the 40 was a piece of cake to hand fly at FL410 with the yaw damper off - try that in a Lear).

The worst system on the 40/60 was probably the anti-skid, rather primitive by today's standards.

We had great luck with support from AVMATS at SUS - don't know if they are still supporting the Sabres or not (I crossed over to the 121 dark side 10+ years ago).

IIRC, at least on paper, the Westwind and the 65 were fairly comparable. That said, the Westwind was a real pig in the handling department compared to the Sabre.

Just my thoughts...

 

[avbug]

The worst system on the 40/60 was probably the anti-skid, rather primitive by today's standards.

The worst system on the 40/60 was the nosewheel steering. From a maintenance perspective, having worked on them, it's overly complicated, prone to failure, and a pain in the butt.

The worst part of the Sabreliner line is the structure. If most pilots flying them, or who have flown them, had any idea of how much corrosion exists in every one of them, they'd shudder and run away.

It's intergranular, and it's in the skin; it's found everywhere, and has nothing to do with corrosion prevention: it's inherent to the material and building techniques of the aircraft.

I don't think there is a better flying jet out there (the 40 was a piece of cake to hand fly at FL410 with the yaw damper off - try that in a Lear).

The Sabre is a nice flying airplane...but so is the Learjet. The Lear isn't that much of a challenge to fly at altitude with autopilot and yaw damper off...even with full tips in a 20 series.

We had great luck with support from AVMATS at SUS - don't know if they are still supporting the Sabres or not (I crossed over to the 121 dark side 10+ years ago).

Avmats still does.

 

[LJ45]

The Lear 31a and 45 can be hand flown with no yaw damp (not required) all the way up to FL510 and I have done that with no problems. Which Saberliner can do that? ....LOL