Lear 25C W/Softflite I Wing

[formerdal]

Looking for any info on this airplane. I'm about to start crewing one and any info would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[JumboCat3]

What is a Lear 25?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It uses a lot of gas.
It makes a lot of noise.
Its banned from many airports.
It uses a lot of gas.
RVSM may cost you a pretty penny.
It cant function below RVSM altitudes.
Its reliable.
It has NO room inside
It uses a lot of gas.

NEVER EVER leave 410 or 450 without KNOWING you will LAND at your intended airport. thats solid long term 20 series advice....just stay at 450 until you find another definite if need be....I think the longest I had one in the air was 3+15 (i think) and it wasn't pretty.

Crew it with a Capt who has 20 series experience (not just 30s)
they are the same rating but the fuel thing demands a VERY different mentality when operating it.

If I rememeber right, at climbout it read 6000lbs/hr burn.....it held 6000 lbs total (approx)

so, it burns a lot of gas.

Its an absolute blast to fly, too bad 90% of 20 series jobs are garbage charter or medevac..



any specifics?

 

[English]

gulfstream 200,

What a great response. It's that kind of knowledge that I wish we could all share around here more often, rather than the constant bickering that seems to be the norm lately.

THANK YOU

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well, we're all about Love here on flightinfo...right?

lets not get all huggy now English....

 

[rice]

Hey G200

well, we're all about Love here on flightinfo...right?

lets not get all huggy now English....

What's the story behind the new Avatar?

 

[Timebuilder]

Crew it with a Capt who has 20 series experience (not just 30s)

I had many long and interesting discussions with an expereinced guy who had most of his Lear time in the 20's. After hearing all that he had to say, I have to agree with everything that was said above. Especially the part about flying with a good 20 series captain. I would not consider getting into a 20 without such a pilot to help me to learn the correct 20 series "way."

Last I heard, someone was working on an RVSM package for the 20's. Has anyone heard of that being certified?

One more thing on the 20. If I am not mistaken the wing is the shorter one, compared to the 35. That "straight" area out near the tip tank isn't there on the early Lears, meaning that the arm distance from the aircraft centerline to the outer edge of the aileron is shorter on this wing, giving less roll control. I'm also told this Lear is more rocket-like, in performance and noise, and more of a handful to fly.

Good luck, and tell us what it's like.

 

[Rick1128]

25C

First, you definately need a Captain that has good 20 series experience. But also remember that the C model carries 7500 pounds of fuel so if you flight it right and it is a striaght aircraft you can get 5 hours out of it. Biggest problems with the C is the small cabin (basicly a 24 cabin), Lear only made 22 of them, and their avionics are different than 25Bs. The C is basicly a 25B with a Lear 36 cabin adn fuel system. There are presently only 18 C's still flying. Personally I prefer the Mark II wing or the Softflite II wing and no TRs, especially on the C. It is one heavy aircraft with full fuel. PM me if you have any particular questions?

Timebuilder, the wing is shorter. The 35/36 had a 18 inch extention on each wing. And there is presently one RVSM mod approved for the 20s (Bizjet) and another (Avcon) should be approved shortly. Actually the roll control on the 20s is much better than the 35/36. If it wasn't, why does the 35/36 have Aileron Aug?

 

[Timebuilder]

You ask a good question. I don't remember a good answer, though!

Maybe the additional length creates additional momentum with the fuel out there in those tip tanks? My impression was the shorter wing gave the aileron less leverage because of the shorter "arm." Maybe it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Come to think of it, I recall a discussion of Aileron Aug being necessary for the slower flight during landing phase, as there is less relative wind, and less aileron authority. That was over a year ago when I had that discussion. I miss flying.

Only 18 left of the C model? How many years old would those C models be?

 

[Rick1128]

First the Ailerons are not further out than on the 20's, just the wing is longer. So there is more mass to move with no more arm. The same situation occured with the Metro. When Fairchild went from the Metro II to the Metro III, they extended the wingtips three feet on each side. Ailerons didn't move. The II had very crisp aileron control, the III felt like the ailerons were in a bucket of half dry concrete.

As for the age, they were built at the same time as B models. So you are looking around 1970 to 1973 area.

 

[formerdal]

25c

Guys

Thanks for the input! Pretty much as expected.

This 25c has the Softflite I wing which does not inlude the increased radius leading edge of The Century III wing. So in addition to all the fuel issues in flight this airplane uses about 30-40% more asphalt than other 25's with the CenturyIII wing.

Augmented Aileron in the 35's is due to the supposed decreased roll control at slower speeds as its only operational I believe with full flaps selected.

Thank again for the input, the trips to the NE will be interesting...

 

[Timebuilder]

First the Ailerons are not further out than on the 20's, just the wing is longer. So there is more mass to move with no more arm.

That makes sense, too. It's been a while since I stood next to one.

Thanks!

 

[LR25]

I did a leg that was about 3.4 before. Went to 450 with only a short stop in the mid 30's.

Winds were right and power was at long range cruise. We were burning about 750 lbs or so a side.

Keep it high as long as you can, then bring it down close to MMO with the power reduced, not the best move with PAX though.

 

[LegacyDriver]

"Flying the Lear, living in fear..." I finally understand what the guy meant!

 

[LJDRVR]

Enjoy the 25! Hopefully you've got the -8 GE's which are nice. Rick and G200 gave you some excellent advice, here's my two cents worth:

Plan on a fuel burn of 2200 the first hour, 1800 the second and 1500 the third. Avoid if possible airports like ADS and PDK where the tower controller is going to make you wait for your release. Those General Electrics burn more fuel on the ground than they do at high altitue cruise. Taxi out on one.

Negotiate actively (Read that beg shamelessly) with ATC. Tell them you'll give them a great rate if you can continue the climb. Avoid leveling off at all costs on the long legs. Beware of the Northeast, Florida and anything around Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. (Airspace geometry will dictate a descent clearance MUCH sooner than you'd prefer.)

To pile on G200, never, ever, EVER, vacate cruise until you're sure the airport is open and the WX is cooperating. Once you start down, the circle in which you can land land gets MUCH smaller. (At the end of a three hour flight it wasn't that big to begin with...)

The jet has wonderful controls. The ailerons are much crisper than the 30 and 50 series. One word of caution on that wing though, don't fly it much below Vref. Aim to touch down at ref. Bad things can happen on those older wings if you allow them to get too slow.

During the descent maintain 80% or more RPM or your cabin will start to climb. Once below FL200 you can go to idle. In the climb, I always used 98% or 680 degrees, whichever comes first.

The J.E.T. 150 aotopilot sucks. Don't trust it. You're flying an aircraft with a pretty healthy thrust/weight ratio. Pay attention when your're IMC, the scan is a bit faster than other Lears. Be especially vigiallant during go-arounds in IMC. Nail the pitch attitude and fight the somautogravic sensation/illusion. (Spelling?)

Fun airplane man, let us know how you like it. If you need any more lame advice, feel free to drop me a line.

Cheers!

 

[OPECJet]

Don't forget it burns a lot of gas..... You're going to see the low fuel light more than you like.

If you push the old GEs out of idle too quickly for T/O, you're likely to stall one. If it happens, retard the engine, and push it up slower on the second try.

They have a tendency to flame out at high altitudes and low speeds. If you climb at 250 / 306 / .76 you'll keep both running. Turning on the engine anti-ice also helps keep the lit for some reason up high. Anything below .70 and you're at risk.

Don't be afraid to turn on the air ignitors if it gets bumpy. Just remember the limitation on their use.

When descending if it doesn't start raining inside the airplane, you're not coming down quick enough.

During cruise, adjust the thrust in one percent increments to tweak your mach number.

If you're carrying high power settings for long periods of time, you may get a fire warning.

All this is from a low time Lear guy who paid attention to high time Lear guys. I could be way off on some.

 

[Rick1128]

I consistantly get over 3 hours out of 25s, you have to fly them right below 15K I set my power to 92% or 1500#/hr/eng for climb and 800#/hr/eng for level. The C model normally has -6s and you are better off with them. The -8As get a little enimic at 410 and above. For descent, I use 500#/hr/eng normally. Some aircraft you will need to pull the power back a little bit more. Look at the cabin rate of climb when you pull the power back. The JET 110 AP is a pain in the butt. They either work well or don't work at all. L3 Avionics now owns JET and is supporting the AP. They do overhaul them (Which is a requirement for the RVSM mode by Bizjet). Personally I feel it is worth the cost and effort to do so. All the Cs that I know of had the variable nose steering. Be careful as the early ones had a unit made by LearAvia. No one nows how to fix it. If you are heavy DO NOT taxi on one engine. You are putting too much strain on the steering. As these aircraft get older, you need to take more and consideration of the systems.

Where are you going to the NE from? I used to fly a 25C from Dallas to Boston and NYC all the time with no problem. If I could keep at least 370 knots GS on the trip east, I could make it back to Dallas non-stop. Remember a C has 7500 pounds of fuel.

If you are going to an airport with high humitity start warming up the windshield early. Like on climb out. It seems to slow down the rain. And it prevents tunnel vision.

The C is very different systems wise from the B. Make sure any shop you use understands that. It is a hybred bird.

The remark about living in fear is not correct. Most of that is spouted by pilots who have little or no time in Lear 20s. You have to think at least 8 miles a minute. And respect the aircraft. It demands aircraft pilots, not airplane drivers. It is not very forgiving. As for Vref, at least Vref until the runway threshold pass under the nose then you can slow down to Vref -5 in the SF1 and -10 in the others. No slower than that.

You will enjoy the aircraft if you understand the aircraft and what it can and can not do.

Have fun

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

There is no "fear" in flying the 20 series..Its an absolute blast to fly..how many civil planes can you fly and max out a 10K ft IVSI on dead legs? not many...

Many have learned on them with no problems. Just follow the rules, respect it at very high altitudes - especially when attempting to top weather. Ref+10 is a good # over the fence, but ref-5 to 10 is also fine on a small strip in calm air...its just an airplane...

Just respect it and fly it by the book.

Avoid all the "modified" procdures that get thrown around the FBO by the old "Lear Lifers" and play it conservative.

Dont be afraid to hint to ATC that you CANT go lower yet or that you CANT take delays...most of the time they understand...but if they dont...never be afraid to pull up short somewhere for fuel....

 

[OPECJet]

The Lear 24 and 25 were the first jets I flew. The captain that taught me how to fly it (as opposed to hanging on for dear life...) told me that anytime you're below 18,000 "If you're not doing something, you're behind." That's something that has stuck with me, and proved to be true with few exceptions.

I miss the 25. Can't wait to get back in one!

 

[501261]

One thing I remember about the 25C is that it wasn’t a very practical airplane, mainly since Lear didn’t increase the T/O or LND weight enen though they put 1500 more fuel on board. The one I flew would weigh 15,600 lbs. (600 over gross) with full fuel and nothing on board (not even the crew).

It seemed to me that the Dee Howard XR mod was much more practical since it included a 1300 pound increase in T/O and LND weight, probably why you see a whole bunch more XR’s out there than 25C’s.

I don't see 25's flying in a few years, it's simply going to cost too much money to certify an RVSM mod for the 25's.