LCCs Retirement Plans???

[Ty Webb]

Don't expect to glean any knowlege or insight from Les. He's basically a bitter POS who doesn't understand a changing world and wants to lash out at those whom he perceives to be "at fault".

Few things in life are ever that simple. Les- Grow up.

PS., Don't assume that because I work for AirTran and you work(ed) for some "legacy" carrier that you are somehow more knowlegeable or superior to me. . . . because it just ain't so.

If I were you, I'd let up about the "Discount Carriers" because you very well may end up swinging the gear for one of us, and if you think that can't happen, you haven't been around as long as you think.

 

[-9Capt]

AirTran retirement

As mentioned we have a B-fund (currently 8%, goes to 10.5% in April '04)

We have a 401K with no company match.

We have an employee stock purchase plan (10% discount).

What hasn't been mentioned is the yearly stock option grant.

Every calender year the company totals up all the block hours flown (including RJ's and Ryan's flying). Block hours flown x 10% = number of options granted to pilots. The options are granted relative to your W2 earnings (the more you made, the more you get). 3 year vesting period and you must exercise the options within 10 years.

A company representitive from Oppenheimer has a computer program that estimates your retirement earnings (excluding options). A 29 year career (assuming no pay raises, max 401k and no change to the b fund contribution, 7% gain on your money) was worth 6.3 million.

 

[jetblue320]

Re: AirTran retirement

A company representitive from Oppenheimer has a computer program that estimates your retirement earnings (excluding options). A 29 year career (assuming no pay raises, max 401k and no change to the b fund contribution, 7% gain on your money) was worth 6.3 million.

29 YEARS!! My gawd Man, we will all be fertilizer by then!!

I do wish you luck though.

Merry Christmas.

 

[-9Capt]

I got hired at 27, I'll have 33 years if this thing holds togeather.

 

[FLB717]

I was trying to give Les the benfit of putting his spread sheet where is keys are. I would agree that no fund is worth all the eggs in one basket.

 

[likeitis]

Sam,

Midwest started around 1984. Do you think that management just offered the pilots an A-Fund? It was negotiated though at the time there wasn't a union and the NMB wasn't involved.

 

[Ty Webb]

Les Paul, the more you post, the more you contradict yourself.

You say on one hand that you don't believe that somehow you are superior to me because I work at a LCC, then you follow it by saying exactly that:

"It absolutely puts your level of professionalism in perspective. Maybe that is a result of where you work, or simply your background... I don't know. "

Then, you can't wait to follow up by exposing your lack of industry experience when you don't even recognize the age-old aviation saw about "swinging the gear".

Since you seem to be a little behind the 8-ball, Les, I'll re-phrase it for you:

YOU could end up starting over at one of the LCC's that you shoot your mouth off about on these boards . . . but after reading your post, I doubt you have nearly as much experience as you would need to get hired by any of the LCC's. Hard to tell, though, since you deliberately avoided including any info on your profile.

So, Les, let's hear all about your aviation experience. I've got 20 seconds to burn.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam,

Midwest started around 1984. Do you think that management just offered the pilots an A-Fund? It was negotiated though at the time there wasn't a union and the NMB wasn't involved.

Actually, it was a rollover from the Kimberly Clark days. My point still holds true in my opinion. No airline pilot union has successfully negotiated a new (from scratch) A-Fund since 1978. The reason I am posting this is that some guys on here are running around saying "get an A-Fund AND a B-Fund and you'll be set." Well it simply isn't that easy. You won't find a new pension plan negotiated for years to come...if ever. The last few years have caused the demise of the traditional pension plan.

Sam

 

[yaks]

Les

You should not try to have a discussion with Ty. You are wasting your time trying to talk to a turnip. Just ignore him like the rest of us do.

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh, Geez, Yaks, you're really hurting my feelings. . . . missing out on all that intelligent discourse I could be having with you, and all.


Yawn.

 

[atldc9]

Just a few comments.

I would love to have an A-fund. Will it come up in the negotiations for our next contract? Absolutely. However, I am not willing to give up anything to get an A-fund. It might be a generational issue. I have 30 years until retirement, assuming it will occur at age 60. I have faith in my ability to save and provide for my own retirement. Having flown with people who lost most, if not all, of thier a funds has impressed upon me the importance of providing for one's self.

To say that an A fund is free money is somewhat misleading. In order for us to get an A-fund would require negotiating, which would cost us something in return.

I just hope Delta survives thier pay cut process with as little cuts as possible. Someone has to keep the bar high so we can claim that we don't make squat compared to X airlines!! It makes our contract negotiations easier.

Now who wants to press for a company car?

 

[pilotyip]

Great Post Sam Fisher

Thank you for your intelligent post Sam Fisher, pensions are a thing of the past, ESOPs, 401K, and other retirement plans are the wave of the future. This is where you the employee put the money in your hands for private investment under your control. The traditional pension was funded by the company out of general revenue operations and invested as they saw fit. If the company goes belly up the gov't gives x% on the dollar for your retirement. As Sam Fisher said most people know the traditional pension is a thing of the past. Except for the UAW, they still think pensions

 

[Sam Fisher]

My words "free money" were made in a very clear manner. Re-read my entire sentence. Free money in my sentence is "non employee deferred". An A-Fund should be a building block in your next negotiations REGARDLESS of whether any other company has negotiated an A-fund in the past 25 years.

I'll stay out of the personal attacks between you and Ty/FLB. However....

Your definition of "free money" should also include B-Plans then, right Les? Since an employee doesn't have to contribute in order to obtain that "free money?" Make no mistake about it...neither an A-Plan nor a B-Plan (or a 401k match for that matter) is "free." They are negotiated in the same context as compensation. It is purely dollars to management. Management doesn't care if it is in the form of a B-Plan or in hourly rate - at the end of the day, it is still a negotiable item that is costed in the final settlement package.

From the sound of your "black and white" comments, you appear to think that negotiations are akin to a "Kay Bee Toy Store" spending spree where you run down the aisle and pull items off the shelf at will without paying for them. You are also sorely misled as to how difficult, if not impossible, it will be for any airline to secure an A-Plan. You might think that my statistic is irrelevant but it only goes to show how ignorant and naive you truly are to the world of labor negotiations.

Sorry to be so blunt and candid, but sometimes that is needed.

Sam

 

[FLB717]

les,
You and I have not always been one the same page. But you have slammed me more than once, and in honesty I have now and then deserved it, as have you. If my English is not up to your great standards, I hope it makes you feel superior. But Im getting very tired of you slamming my airline when you have not the fortitude and integrity to EVER claim your airline or background other than to claim your business background.

 

[Sam Fisher]

In fact... I am willing to bet that a quick survey of contract negotiators and pilots alike would all agree that it is "I" that they would want going into CBA negotiations versus "YOU".

Management negotiators would embrace your starting position and mentality, and exploit your "statistics" like taking candy from a sleeping baby.... at least based on your "quit now we're scr@wed" approach.

Les

I don't believe I ever said "quit now, we're screwed." But I also understand what is realistic and what is not. For you to even try to assume that you know me or my resume...now THAT is ignorant as well. I'm not on here to get into a pissing match over who is "better" or who has a "bigger pee pee." I enjoy the rational debate.

Being a good negotiator isn't about being the most militant nor is it about being the one with the longest Christmas "wish list."

Sorry dude...you're way off base.

Sam

 

[FLB717]

Sam,
Becareful you may end up a Anti-Les like me and Ty have. Im sure it would keep you up at night just like me.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam,
Becareful you may end up a Anti-Les like me and Ty have. Im sure it would keep you up at night just like me.

Doubt it. I enjoy logical and level headed debate...not pissing contests. Perhaps my post was harsh but sometimes that is what's needed. I didn't mean any personal attack, just meant to attack the message.

Sam

 

[FLB717]

Sam,
I know you didnt go for the low blow, but Im wondering if Les will. I enjoyed his swipe at my lack of education in a discusion that had no bearing on any grade or lack of thought from my little slow LCC brain.

As far as a pissing contest you are very correct, this tread has lost any useful meaning.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam,
I know you didnt go for the low blow, but Im wondering if Les will. I enjoyed his swipe at my lack of education in a discusion that had no bearing on any grade or lack of thought from my little slow LCC brain.

As far as a pissing contest you are very correct, this tread has lost any useful meaning.

Ask him how your 12 year 717 rate of $154/hour compares to United's 737 rate at 12th year...or AA's Fokker 100 rate of $109.79/hour at 12th year. Or ask him about how Airtran's 1:3.5 trip rig compares to United's rig package. Frankly...I am very impressed by Airtran's contract and their provisions. It is definitely a career airline. Go Joe Leonard. Seems to me that Airtran is going to help UAL and AA get their contracts back up a bit and raise the bar.

Sam

 

[FLB717]

Sam, YOU are a true Gentleman. Thank you.