LCCs Retirement Plans???

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by AlbieF15

Ty...while we are at it...you need to pony up too. Nobody rides for free, and those of us WITH jobs we like ought to be paying as much or more than those guys still trying to move up in the ranks.


Albie, not only did I contribute this time, but I also contributed the time before (about two and a half years ago).

 

[General Lee]

Ty,

A probable reason we taxi fairly slow at ATL is that we are taxiing single engine and to taxi faster would require excess thrust on that one operating engine, blowing more FOD around. We probably start up the second engine when there are three or four planes to go, so as to make sure we have the required amount of time on the motors before takeoff.

You are lucky to be flying and thinking about an upgrade. I bet there are many Delta furloughs that would like to trade places with you. I would pick the 737NG. (I liked the 738)

No, I never did fly corporate, and never had someone on my leg(or in my lap) on an approach (my wife would kill me). But, I did have my wife (a flight attendant) in the cockpit (pre-9-11---they allowed A-lines or head stew in the cockpit for a landing or takeoff) while I landed at St. Thomas and an interesting beach departure at Cancun. Yeah, and she later gave us both (the Capt and me) ice cream sundaes after first class was served. Not bad.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[yaks]

retirement

"Pretend I am hired at Delta or AA etc. when I am 40, work till I am 60 then die at 80. That is 40 years from hire to death and I will be counting on that pension till I die. The big question is: Will my company be around for next 40 years?"

Not necessarily as many companies have a lump sum payout option for the A fund as well which I believe most people would take.

 

[Frac Daddy]

yaks,

Thanks for the clarification. . I guess I should have compared defined contribution plans vs. difined benefit plans that have no lump options rather that A vs. B.

 

[AlbieF15]

Ty,

My apologies. I didn't see your name on the contributer list, but I may have missed it. I likewise was here for the last funraiser, and also threw in some bones...

But...he General...we are calling you out! Are you going to pony up or is the wisdom of your posts your only contribution to the cause?

If you'd rather surf the web and dive into message boards on a layover instead of watch the boob tube (overpaid athletes, movies you've already seen, stupid shows, etc), you aren't alone. However, Mark has asked for money TWICE in about 3 years. I think us forum junkies can at least chip in a few bucks to keep this going. If all I have to surf on layovers is my company site and my email I might have to get off my lazy butt and go to the hotel gym. Please contribute...the flab you save might be my own!

Surf safe (and pay up)

 

[FDJ2]

[No, I don't. The "whistling past the graveyard" remark was in regards to FDJ2's bone-headed assertion that A-funds are secure.

Ty, you bone head , when did I say an A- fund is secure? I said they can't just take it away. If you work for a solvent carrier the courts don't come into play, if your in bankruptcy, your fund might be altered, or it might not. At any rate, having an A fund + a B fund is better than just having a 401k, particularly if you only have a 401k and low wage carrier pay rates to begin with.

 

[Ty Webb]

That's great, FDJ. If I meet anyone that works for a "low wage carrier" that doesn't have a "B" fund, I'll make sure to let them know about your suggestion. That won't be anyone at AirTran, though, our "B" fund has a 10.5% annual contribution.

As for my "bonehead" comment- if the shoe stinks, it's probably yours. Listen up on the frequency before you key your mike next time, pal.

 

[FDJ2]

[
As for my "bonehead" comment- if the shoe stinks, it's probably yours. Listen up on the frequency before you key your mike next time, pal. [/B]

Ty, you should listen to your own advice.

PS- If my shoe stinks, it's probably because I just took it out of your arse.

 

[FLB717]

Can we all just feel the luve in ATL

 

[Cyclone]

He that lieth down with Dogs, shall rise up with Fleas
(Ben Franklin)

scratch, scratch...

 

[SNIZ]

Anyone want to jump back on the benefits subject? Just wondering.

 

[FLB717]

Les,
I understand you point of a multilayer retirment and you have a good point in that. But in my point of view having listened to the stories of our Eastern, Braniff, Pan AM, TWA pilots. And having read the demise of the AFunds at UAL and USAir I would rather have a 14% or 15% BFund and call it a day vs work for 27 more years to get 0% of my AFund because some guy in the form of anew CEO in Managment screwed my career through CH11 or even worse CH7. As far as a 401K match that would be nice but Id rather have a different form of payout (ESOP, Profit Share, Stock Grants) than a match of 3% or 5% of 12K (5% =$650) not a big deal to me vs the above ideas. I am just very concerned with any pension type fund that relies on the future of any company to pay the bills. My .00002 cents

 

[DonVerita]

Regarding AirTran,

As a previous poster said, we have a B fund retirement plan where the company contributes 8% (at this time) of your monthly earnings into an account with Fidelity. This account is yours. The money is yours. Nobody can take it away from you now or in the future. In April of 2004, the amount that the company contributes will rise to 10.5%.

We also have an employee stock purchase program whereupon you are allowed to purchase company stock at 10% below the market rate. You sign up for a payroll deduction for this, so everything is automatic. You can cancel it at any time if you want.

Also, we do have a 401k plan. But there is no company match at this time.

In upcoming negotiations for our new contract, which is due in 2005 (talks start around April of 2004), we will definately be looking for an increase in company B fund contributions as well as some kind of match on the 401k, in addition to pay raises, increased quality of life issues, and some cleaning up of the wording in the previous contract.

I have been here a little over 1 year. This is by far the best place I have ever worked and my expectations have been met and exceeded. I average 17 days off per month, fly about 4 trips per month, and almost always am able to commute in and out on the front and back sides of the trip; thereby not needing a crash pad.

We have 14 deliveries of 717 aircraft coming in 2004 plus the 737 deliveries starting in May or June. At times, the 737's will be rolling in here at the rate of 2 per month.

The future of this company looks very bright. You may not see all the flashy media that JetBlue gets, but that is by design. AirTran prefers to stay under the radar, get established in new markets without alot of media attention, and then when all the pieces of the puzzle are in place, aggressively expand. JetBlue on the other hand likes to showboat. That is not meant to be a flame, just an observation of a different corporate philosophy. But it comes at a price. By getting in a pissing match with Delta, Song has come down hard on them and continues to do so.

The next year will be interesting to say the least. I think the Big 3 LCC's (Southwest, AirTran, jetBlue) will do fine. I hope that Frontier will be able to hold its own against Ted.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Question for all of you "save the profession --> negotiate an A-Fund" types:

How many airline pilot groups have successfully negotiated a NEW (read: from scratch) A-Fund since 1978 (deregulation)?

Sam

 

[likeitis]

How many airline pilot groups have successfully negotiated a NEW (read: from scratch) A-Fund since 1978 (deregulation)?

Midwest Airlines in 2000.

 

[jbucpt]

Ty, you bone head , when did I say an A- fund is secure? I said they can't just take it away. If you work for a solvent carrier the courts don't come into play, if your in bankruptcy, your fund might be altered, or it might not...

fdj2,

im not baiting, but please explain:

A. what "altered" means.

B. what happened to US Airs retirement fund.

C. whats gonna happen to uniteds retirement fund if the government doesnt step in.

im just a confused low-wage carrier pilot

 

[Sam Fisher]

Midwest Airlines in 2000.

likeitis,

Not exactly true. Pasted below is the actual contract language from Midwest Airlines' Retirement Section. MEA did have a DB plan prior to 2000 that is called the "Old DB Plan" in the contract language. Check out the bolded and italicized section for more details.

Sam

A. Establishment of New Defined Benefit Plan ("New DB Plan”)

1. Effective DOS or April 1, 2000 whichever is later, the Company will establish a new qualified defined benefit plan, The Midwest Express Airlines Pilots’ Supplemental Retirement Plan (the "New DB Plan") covering as Participants only Pilots covered by a collective bargaining agreement between the Company and ALPA (and such Pilots' beneficiaries). Participation in the New DB Plan will be effective on DOS or April 1, 2000 whichever is later, for all Pilots employed on that date and will be effective on a Pilot's date of hire for any Pilot employed after DOS or April 1, 2000 whichever is later.

2. The terms of the New DB Plan will be the same as the terms of the Midwest Express Airlines, Inc. Salaried Employees' Retirement Plan (the “Old DB Plan"), except as provided herein.

3. The terms of the New DB Plan will be applied based on all of a Participant's employment with the Company (including employment with Kimberly-Clark), both before and after April 1, 2000.

 

[Sam Fisher]

The bold italics that you post here is not in the context that you present it as. It is true. Midwest DOES have a "A-fund" that is company funded. It amounts to 1.4% X the average monthly earnings X years of service.

Was/is this negotiated since 1978. I would take a stong guess and say... YES. Actually, however, as far as I'm concerned when this A-fund was negotiated and started is irrelevant. Unless they gave this back post 9/11, they HAVE an "A-Fund".

Great for them!!

Les

Les,

My point from my first post still holds in my opinion. There hasn't been one successfully negotiated NEW A-Fund since deregulation. I think you might have misunderstood the reason for my previous post that included the MEA contract language.

You said that when the A-Fund was negotiated is is irrelevant. I disagree. You are asking guys at Airtran to make sure they get an A-Fund. Regardless of whether or not they want one, they most likely will 99.9% NOT get one. Again, there has yet to be one single NEW traditional pension plan negotiated since 1978. There is a good reason for that.

Sam

 

[FLB717]

Les,
Ok yeah your right on the others being part of the same parcel as an AFund. So I will reply witha question that maybe you can help me with, what is the difference at 28 more years from now with my current BFund of 10.5% and an AFund (Standard payout). Verses an BFund of 15.5%? Curious to know.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Les,
Ok yeah your right on the others being part of the same parcel as an AFund. So I will reply witha question that maybe you can help me with, what is the difference at 28 more years from now with my current BFund of 10.5% and an AFund (Standard payout). Verses an BFund of 15.5%? Curious to know.

Unless he is an actuary or has built some sophisticated financial models using Excel, he won't be able to answer that question. You'd have to derive some market-based assumptions as well as some other miscellaneous assumptions about your final average earnings, upgrade time, rate increases, etc....in order to do that sort of pro-forma forecasting.

A B-Plan is only as good as how your money has done in the market....and an A-Plan is only good if you're company's retirement funds are still solvent. I wouldn't bank my retirement solely on either of these vehicles personally.

Sam