Last chance for an airline job?

[Caveman]

Bobbysamd,

Based on the fact that having similar quals as younger peers you weren't offered interviews I could see how you got the impression that your age was a negative factor.

IMO your experience is the exception. My experience and the experience of everybody else I've talked to that's our age (40+) was different. Our age, if a factor at all, has been a plus.

I recognize that I perceive my experiences as the norm just as you perceive yours as the norm. In the absence of any other input we both appear to be half right. However, in reading other posts in this thread and in past threads on the subject there appear to be more experiences similar to mine than to yours. That in and of itself doesn't prove anything, but it does suggest that your case may have been the exception.

Regards and Happy Holidays,

Caveman

 

[Bill Nelson]

I was at the wrong place at the wrong time

Maybe the reason you guys have a hard time interviewing is because they since a lack of motivation. I have never been at the "right place at the right time," but I moved, beat down doors, etc. to make sure I was moving in the right direction. If you were flying for several years and only had 900tt and 50 multi then you probably weren't being much of a "go-getter." I seriously doubt that age was a determining factor.

It is my opinion that the regionals don't base their hiring decisions on someone ability to make the job a "career." The regionals depend on turnover to keep pilot wages low. If everyone stayed around for 15-20 years they would all be looking for ways to get rid of people and hire new guys at starting wages.

I think they may have sinced a lack of motivation. You should take a long hard look in the mirror before your next interview and decide if you truly want to be there. If so, project that. They jobs will come if you want them too.

 

[bobbysamd]

Turnover and salary

It is my opinion that the regionals don't base their hiring decisions on someone ability to make the job a "career." The regionals depend on turnover to keep pilot wages low. If everyone stayed around for 15-20 years they would all be looking for ways to get rid of people and hire new guys at starting wages . . . .

Which is on point to my theory about wages and stability, which is they figure that someone over forty won't work for their starting wages, and, thus, reject him/her out of hand. Maybe they don't want pilots to make them a career.

Of course, no one in his right mind wants to work for $14K forever. But, someone like me or hangar7guy who wants the job because we've wanted to fly and just want a chance, might stay at the regional forever. Which means that eventually we would vest in its retirement plan. Or, G-d forbid, even worse, become bigshots in the airline's pilot union and give them all sorts of grief.

I dunno, Caveman, if my experience was the exception instead of the norm. I have another friend who is younger than me by about two days. He was in the oil business for several years before it went T.U. and he went to flying. He told me that he interviewed with a regional and was rejected. He said that he heard later that it was because of age. This was only a few years ago, when hiring was good. I base my conclusion on inductive reasoning.

Now, when I was looking for that regional job, career changing was fairly new. Another theory is the H.R. savants couldn't fathom why I wanted to start over in my late 30s. Maybe they thought I was a dilettante or something. Well, all they had to do was ask. Once again, unless they possess some superlative Carnac-like clairvoyant power, it's hard to determine a person's motivation strictly from a resume. While it costs a company nothing to interview someone, especially if he/she pays his/her way to the interview, all H.R. had to do was pick up the phone and speak to me for a minute.

I want to clarify a comment I made above about the majors hiring over-40 pilots. While I believe that most of these folks the majors hire are the highly experienced people I wrote about above, I believe that age discrimination is rampant at the regional level.

In any event, good discussion. Hopefully, it has been helpful for hangar7guy.

 

[hangar7guy]

Thanks

Yes, it has been helpful. At the same time, it reminds me of some of the reasons that my drive to get that elusive airline job had cooled off a bit over the years.

dogg--

>Have you been showing up at your interviews with nicotine stains and sideburns, wearing cowboy boots and the same Wal Mart suit that you were wearing 8 years ago<

This almost had me LOL, except I recall a few interviews with people who were dressed just like that. Me, I think my appearance is pretty well under control: Conservative navy pinstripes, white shirt, muted tie, black shiny dress shoes. But your point is well taken: My interview skills are probably in need of an overhaul. I know that my personality strikes most people as kind of subdued. I am as reserved and conservative in manner as in dress. I probably don't dazzle anyone.

Jeff--

>It will most likely take a 135- low-paying-twin-I-hope-I-don't--kill-myself-flying-job to make yourself competitive again. <

This has probably been my main stumbling block in the qualifications department. I'm reluctant to go out and kill myself. I've been a bit too choosy about who I'd fly for. And not just because I want to save my neck; I'm also concerned about getting accidents or violations on my record. And I've had the incredibly demoralizing experience of working for a 135 operation that treated me and other employees like $hit. So you're right -- the big question is whether I can put up with more of this BS in order to achieve this goal.

I'm fortunate in that I have a nice house to come home to (fully paid for), a reasonably nice (though not brand new) car and no debts of any kind. Nor do I have any family ties that bind me.

Thanks again to all who answered.

"7"

 

[bobbysamd]

Career changer

If you were flying for several years and only had 900tt and 50 multi then you probably weren't being much of a "go-getter." I seriously doubt that age was a determining factor.

To clarify that point, I was one of those who always wanted to learn how to fly but had not or could not consider it as a career possibility as a young person. Finally, I had enough stability in my life and finances to learn. I flew for fun and worked on ratings, primarily because I wanted to be a good pilot. I couldn't work on my ratings consistently because I had horrendous work schedules during those years. Finally, when I decided to make a change, all I needed were my multi ratings - which I obtained. I flew the Baron while I was applying, and applying, and applying to the commuters and a couple of freight. Several months later, I got me MEI; in fact, I took my ride the day before I flew to my ERAU interview. I was flying and instructing, and working at my day job (which was really a night-day job), which I had to keep until I could find a full-time flying job. I had no money or other means of support. So, that's why my times were where they were.

A resume may be a snapshot of one's quals but is not a portrait of a person's desire, enthusiasm, abilities and loyalty. I say again, all it would have taken would have been a phone interview if they didn't want to bring me in for a face-to-face meeting.

 

[BRA]

If one was to interview at someplace like comair next week, and got a class date the week after....not being instrument current, or current on a twin would be a recipe for failure in the sim. But i have seen some people that can turn it on or off like a light switch...others get very rusty with time. I've done a lot of BFR's. So either way you have to get into a twin and do some instrument stuff anyhow. You'll probably need that to get through the interview. I do think your resume as it is now will be able to get you interviews though. They just don't want someone with a good chance of wash out if they don't have too. (costs them $) And i think that's what they would think in an interview if you had one as of now. Do you have CFII or MEI? That kind of work would be better then work with privates.

Bobbysamd.....not saying you were at all...but how many of the older CFI's at ERAU, the ones that never seemed to leave had skeletons in their closet. Like DUI's or something? There usually is a reason. I knew people that got jet jobs with 2 DUI's in the late 90's boom. Hard to believe.

 

[CL60]

7,

Although I've never flown for the airlines, there was time when I wanted to as well. Like you, my timing was also way off. Just born at the wrong time for what I wanted to do and missed my window of opportunity.

In the meantime, I carved out a great career in another sector of aviation as a pilot. Eventually, I had the opportunity to go to the airlines if I wanted to but had discovered that I stumbled upon a different aviation venue that I truly loved. Already having invested years into this career and realizing that there were other great flying jobs out there, I repectfully declined the lure of the airlines.

I'm sure I'd be happy with either career as long as I was flying but the point is, don't discount other piloting careers. At your age and level of flying experience, you can still make a nice career for yourself out here... somewhere.

Good luck,

 

[Timebuilder]

Hangar 7-

You do have great quals for a regional, and currency has been correctly identified as being your "problem".

What will you do to fix it?

He's what I would do. "get thee to an airport" as Chaucer might have said.

Start with your IFR currency. Get an experienced instructor in a 172 and start flying some IFR cross country. Get the approaches down cold. Review the regs. Know the Jepp charts. Do the IPC check.

Call Craig Washka at Airnet when you are current. Fill out the online app. Get flying. By this time next year, you could look VERY good to a whole lot of carriers.



Next case: age discrimination.

Yesterday, I got a call from an old friend. I'll call him "Bob" (not his real name). Bob was at one time one of the premier radio and voice over talents in New York City. He has literally dozens of big name companies on his client list. If you ever bought a tape of funny impressions to use on your answering machine, it was probably Bob on the tape. When you watched the super bowl in 1985, you heard Bob on at least ONE of the spots. That one spot paid Bob over $20k for the basic 11 week run, then paid another 20k if the client kept it on the air..

About fifteen years ago, something started to happen. Agents stopped calling. Clients were looking for more "gen X" voices, like that kid "Steven" in the Dell computer ads. That's fine, since that particular actor was a part of their target demographic. But other things were happening, too. Buick, who isn't going to sell a Le Sabre to your college aged daughter, was also hiring younger voices. Agents were taking on clients that would work with them for twenty or thirty years, and not just another ten or fifteen. At one point, twenty auditions (think of them as airline interviews) in a week produced no jobs, leaving Bob with all of the expenses for the travel and food, and no work to pay for it.

Bob was great at these auditions. He hadn't lost a thing. If anything, he had honed his craft to a fine edge, a Samurai announcer, following his Bushido. His voice demo was a who's who of American corporations.

Bob finally moved to the south, where he does imaging and liners for radio stations and satellite broadcasters. The ad agencies want him to be thirty years old. No dice.

If you think that this trend is confined to broadcasting, you are incorrect. Another aspect is life experience. It is far easier for an employer to hoodwink, bamboozle, and cheat a younger employee. An older, wiser man knows when he is being BS'd, and will speak up. People don't like being called on their own carpet.

Think of it this way: if you are parking with a sixteen year old girl, and you tell her "I love you", she'll believe it. A thirty year old might burst out, laughing.

Now if you have never experienced age discrimination, this will all be BS. Until, that is, it happens to you.

 

[dash8driver]

yes, age discrimination does exist, but its not the rule and it shouldnt keep you from trying to get a job at a place that doesnt age discriminate.

not every hiring board/department uses the same ruler for choosing applicants.. not every one will discriminate. who cares if you dont get picked up at a place that discriminates? would you want to work there anyways? its probably a good bet that they have a lot more problems and employment there would be less than fun at any rate. keep going and you'll get to a place that doesnt discriminate.

hangar7, i sent you a PM check it out.

let me restate that i am at a regional and we just hired a guy (post 9/11) that is over 50, he was a career changer...started off as a pilot, change careers and let his currency go out for a number of years, and decided to be a pilot again. before we hired him, he had not flown a plane for years and years (between 5-10 years).

i too was sort of a career changer... except that my earlier careers were only a means to pay for all my training and such. i wasnt hired til i was in my 30's.

i cant speak for other HR departments, but i can say that ours doesnt discriminate and neither does our sister airline. all our hiring is based on picking up the people that will fit in best with our company. age and total time are not a factor here. you arent scored or ranked by total time, its just used to meet the mins...after that you have to be a decent, easy going person (and pass that cog test) and odds are you'll get into the pool.

i say keep going, dont let a couple of idiot HR people discourage you from getting your dream of flying at a good company that will appreciate you for your assets.

 

[bobbysamd]

Applicant Saintliness, or lack thereof

Originally posted by BRA
Bobbysamd.....not saying you were at all...but how many of the older CFI's at ERAU, the ones that never seemed to leave had skeletons in their closet. Like DUI's or something . . .

I can only think of one other at the moment besides me. One was a gal who was extremely well qualified. She had flown Ameriflight 135 Lance freight (and all that it implies) and Air Nevada 135 tours. Also an excellent instructing background. She had a First with a vision waiver. She had interviewed with United, who apparently brought her all the way to Chicago or Denver to interview, only to nix her because of the waiver. She also tried for years and years and years to get on with Horizon and with DC-8 freight. As honest and professional as the day is long. Extremely intelligent and a great pilot - the only person I ever met who could land a 182RG consistently without landing flat (maybe because of her 207 time). She finally got on with the FAA as an ASI. Which, I'm sure, speaks to the sanctity of her driving record.

Now, by the time you reach age 40, unless you've lived a completely sheltered life, you're bound to have had a few less-than-saintly experiences. I had a speeding ticket three years before I started to apply seriously for jobs and another one seven years before. I owned up to them on the apps I completed. I could explain the second ticket away at an interview if needed - I was running late to work after having taken a training flight (that is G-d's honest truth!)!! I never had any FAA violations or certificate actions. I had good credit and owed no money. In the meantime, I had a friend whom I'd known since childhood who started flying a few years before I did but was able to work around airplanes and build time. He was no saint, especially behind the wheel. He rolled a 182. He got hired and made Captain.

Once again, how do you judge a book only by its cover, i.e., resume? You can't.

 

[dogg]

Hanger, I hope that you did not take anything I said personally. The point being, that you want to look at yourself from top to bottom and front to back. Have you ever put on your interview duds and had someone who does not know you at all ask you an hours worth of questions about yourself and why you want to fly and why it has taken this long. And I mean verey pointed questions. It can be quite enlightening afterwards to watch yourself. With your financial "house" in order it sounds like you are in a perfect position to take advantage of opportunities as they come along. As to the "I hope I don't kill myself" jobs, you are at a point where you can walk away from them if need be. Unlike the young bucks who are out to show the world what they are made of , or the older guys with 3 kids and 2 wives who absolutely need that paycheck, you can just say no and be comfortable with it. That is not to say that you won't experience some "what the f#@% am I doing here" moments but you don't have to let them get you.
So like I said before, saddle up and hit the road, you will be here before you know it..............

 

[hangar7guy]

No offense taken at all, dogg. In fact, I'm impressed with the good advice in just about all these responses. Not a flame or smart a$$ comment in the bunch...not always the case in these aviation message boards.

Thanks again for the advice.

"7"

 

[Dieterly]

Bobby has been bitching a few years about not getting hired by the commuters back in the -90's, but what he fails to mention is that at the same time, Mesa hired older guys than him with the same basic instructor background. Plus also, at the same time there were a bunch of us younger guys bouncing from interview to interview, without getting picked up.

I still have all my cover letters and resumes saved on disk (type writer) from those days (they are in the hundreds), majority of them didn't even get me a postcard, let alone an application.

Bobby, maybe it's time to realize that you sucked at those airline interviews, and the age wasn't really the problem.

 

[bobbysamd]

Mediocre interviewee

Bobby has been bitching a few years about not getting hired by the commuters back in the -90's, but what he fails to mention is that at the same time, Mesa hired older guys than him with the same basic instructor background. Plus also, at the same time there were a bunch of us younger guys bouncing from interview to interview, without getting picked up.

I still have all my cover letters and resumes saved on disk (type writer) from those days (they are in the hundreds), majority of them didn't even get me a postcard, let alone an application.

Bobby, maybe it's time to realize that you sucked at those airline interviews, and the age wasn't really the problem.

Believe me, I'd love to know, even to this day. I tried calling one after I received my rejection letter to see what I might have done better or if there was anything I could clarify and the guy was mum. He said that it was company policy not to discuss interviews with interviewees (out of fear of exposure for discriminatory hiring practices, perhaps??). I won't give the company's name.

My point is that I sent materials to numerous regionals without response while my younger colleagues were getting interviews and jobs at these very same regionals. Accordingly, I wasn't given the opportunity to suck at their interviews. Therefore, it is clear to me that I suffered age discrimination.

Perhaps Mesa was hiring folks my age and with a similar background to mine, but that is only one example. What about the others?? My results, or lack thereof, that I received from all my application attempts provides the answer.

I interviewed with Grady Reed, the Mr. Beech 1900 of Mesa. He asked if I had any questions; I asked if Mesa was planning to obtain RJs. This was in 1990, when they were in the testing stages. Mr. Reed was clearly put off by my question. I wasn't hired. As Paul Harvey would say, we know the rest of the story about Mesa and RJs. I don't feel I asked an unreasonable question. Maybe that was bad luck. Or, as you put it, Dieterly, I "sucked" at my Mesa interview. Here again, that is one example, and speculative.

(A lesson to be learned from this episode: No matter how good your gouge may be about a particular interviewer, be careful what you ask if you are afforded the opportunity to ask questions. I received FAPA gouge about Mesa before the interview. In fact, some counselors say that you should decline the opportunity to ask questions because you might trap yourself, as I might have with Reed.)

I was up front about my age because there was no point in doing otherwise for the following reasons: (1) H.R. will be put off if you don't and (2) it can figure out your age anyway. Moreover, as Jeff Helgeson opined above, I thought they'd find my age to be an asset because I would be stable. Either way, you're d@mned if you do and d@mned if you don't.

Once more, you can judge a person's quals from a resume but you cannot judge the person. However, you can determine the person's age from that piece of paper - and that's enough, in my .02 opinion, to knock you out if you're "too old."

 

[Bill Nelson]

Everyone pretty much agrees that you are an idiot. You really think that it was age discrimination? How did they know how old you where off your resume? If you put enough information on your resume to tell them your age, then they already decided that you were an idiot. (Go back to school and figure out how to type a resume) Your age had nothing to do with it. You would be just as much an idiot at age 12 as at 60. MORON.

You just suck at marketing yourself. Figure it out! Dumas