Last chance for an airline job?

[Caveman]

Yep, it must be the age thing. It couldn't possibly be that you don't interview well.

I was offered jobs at two 121 carriers past the age of 40. One of them was post 9/11. I had a handful of hours (less than 20) in the right seat of a Falcon, but other than that the biggest thing I'd flown was a Seminole. I don't have a 4 year degree. If anything my age has worked to my advantage.

If you want to fly, then go fly. Otherwise you'll be second guessing yourself for the rest of your life.

 

[dogg]

Hanger7,


One of the biggest questions about making at "your age" is are you willing to and able to go out and act like a "28 year old".

What I mean by that is are you able to get by on 1200.00 a month at a crappy check hauling night freight company and are you willing to live with 3 or 4 other roomates and drive an absolute POS vehicle so that you can afford to work for 1200.00 a month.
Are you willing and able to pick up and move across the country with no notice to yet another crappy outfit so that you can build some turbine time. While doing this are you willing and able to send resumes to every company listed in the RAA directory so that you can slowly crawl up to the competitive minimums that will get you a job at Sky West or Com Air or Mesa or Great Lakes.
And equally important, since you have interviewed and have been unsuccessful, are you willing to take a long, hard look at your interview skills.
Have you been showing up at your interviews with nicotine stains and sideburns, wearing cowboy boots and the same Wal Mart suit that you were wearing 8 years ago. (dont take any of this personnally, i am being the devils advocate). And perhaps also not fully prepared for ATP level questioning from pilots as well as not being prepared with all the mundane company info so cherished by the HR types.

You see, getting a job in aviation is a full time job in and of itself. And it is not cheap either. Airline tickets, hotels and rental cars. Interview prep, simulator sessions and job fairs. New interview suits that you will never wear except at an interview. And the time to study and stay current when you are flying all night or sitting at an airport all day.

If you are able and willing to, go out and get ANY 135 JOB. And let that one lead you to another and all the while be networking and studying and mentally preparing for that next interview and sim evaluation. One day you will find yourself at an interview with one of the big regionals. Even though you have plenty of total time, it will take a couple of years to aquire the competitive times that you need.

I can assure you of one thing and that is you will NOT get an airline job from the outside. In todays market and at your age you must get beyond the flight instructor stage to the 135 stage, even if in the beginning it is flying a 210 or a cherokee six.

So if you can, get off your A#* and take the bull by the horns and we will see you out there on the line somewhere........

 

[bobbysamd]

DL AARP interviewees

The class behind me at Delta had a gentelman who was 55. my class had quite a few guys in their late 40's.

I would be curious as to their quals. Were any of them career changers who started in their thirties? I think not. Probably, these folks had been flying for many, many years and were extremely qualified, aviation was their only career, and they were ex-military (most likely with Delta), or flew DC-8 freight, or flew commuters for years.

Not to mention perfect or near-perfect vision.

We're talking about the chances for mid-life career changers, not veteran pilots who were long-deserving of their chances.

One other thing I'd mention is the commuters might think that people who are over forty won't want the lousy first-year pay. Well, who does want lousy first-year commuter pay? That's something they can clear up in the interview. I would have been happy to get it (but not exactly overjoyed). Second year is better.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

Yep, it must be the age thing. It couldn't possibly be that you don't interview well . . . .

Perhaps. Maybe not. The only thing I can say is that I sent out tons of resumes and updates and apps. My younger peers were getting responses and interviews from these same places from whom I received no response, except for the polite "we will keep your resume on file" postcards. How do you judge a person completely and fully from a resume? Must be some kind of clairvoyant savant ability of H.R.

In any event, they, at 25 and under, were getting interviews and jobs. I, at 40, was getting neither. In my .02, it doesn't take a pilot or rocket scientist to figure it out.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

I second what DOGG said.

You need to be 100% committed. Consistancy is also very important. If they see a lot of gaps in the flying, you need to be able to explain it in a way that shows you are committed to aviation and won't punch out if things get a little ugly. If you can show you were totally committed to your flying goals, that gives the recruiters confidence that you will tough out the first years of low pay, contract/union troubles, study hard in training to get through the program, etc.

Enough said, good luck in your goals.

 

[Caveman]

Bobbysamd,

Based on the fact that having similar quals as younger peers you weren't offered interviews I could see how you got the impression that your age was a negative factor.

IMO your experience is the exception. My experience and the experience of everybody else I've talked to that's our age (40+) was different. Our age, if a factor at all, has been a plus.

I recognize that I perceive my experiences as the norm just as you perceive yours as the norm. In the absence of any other input we both appear to be half right. However, in reading other posts in this thread and in past threads on the subject there appear to be more experiences similar to mine than to yours. That in and of itself doesn't prove anything, but it does suggest that your case may have been the exception.

Regards and Happy Holidays,

Caveman

 

[Bill Nelson]

I was at the wrong place at the wrong time

Maybe the reason you guys have a hard time interviewing is because they since a lack of motivation. I have never been at the "right place at the right time," but I moved, beat down doors, etc. to make sure I was moving in the right direction. If you were flying for several years and only had 900tt and 50 multi then you probably weren't being much of a "go-getter." I seriously doubt that age was a determining factor.

It is my opinion that the regionals don't base their hiring decisions on someone ability to make the job a "career." The regionals depend on turnover to keep pilot wages low. If everyone stayed around for 15-20 years they would all be looking for ways to get rid of people and hire new guys at starting wages.

I think they may have sinced a lack of motivation. You should take a long hard look in the mirror before your next interview and decide if you truly want to be there. If so, project that. They jobs will come if you want them too.

 

[bobbysamd]

Turnover and salary

It is my opinion that the regionals don't base their hiring decisions on someone ability to make the job a "career." The regionals depend on turnover to keep pilot wages low. If everyone stayed around for 15-20 years they would all be looking for ways to get rid of people and hire new guys at starting wages . . . .

Which is on point to my theory about wages and stability, which is they figure that someone over forty won't work for their starting wages, and, thus, reject him/her out of hand. Maybe they don't want pilots to make them a career.

Of course, no one in his right mind wants to work for $14K forever. But, someone like me or hangar7guy who wants the job because we've wanted to fly and just want a chance, might stay at the regional forever. Which means that eventually we would vest in its retirement plan. Or, G-d forbid, even worse, become bigshots in the airline's pilot union and give them all sorts of grief.

I dunno, Caveman, if my experience was the exception instead of the norm. I have another friend who is younger than me by about two days. He was in the oil business for several years before it went T.U. and he went to flying. He told me that he interviewed with a regional and was rejected. He said that he heard later that it was because of age. This was only a few years ago, when hiring was good. I base my conclusion on inductive reasoning.

Now, when I was looking for that regional job, career changing was fairly new. Another theory is the H.R. savants couldn't fathom why I wanted to start over in my late 30s. Maybe they thought I was a dilettante or something. Well, all they had to do was ask. Once again, unless they possess some superlative Carnac-like clairvoyant power, it's hard to determine a person's motivation strictly from a resume. While it costs a company nothing to interview someone, especially if he/she pays his/her way to the interview, all H.R. had to do was pick up the phone and speak to me for a minute.

I want to clarify a comment I made above about the majors hiring over-40 pilots. While I believe that most of these folks the majors hire are the highly experienced people I wrote about above, I believe that age discrimination is rampant at the regional level.

In any event, good discussion. Hopefully, it has been helpful for hangar7guy.

 

[hangar7guy]

Thanks

Yes, it has been helpful. At the same time, it reminds me of some of the reasons that my drive to get that elusive airline job had cooled off a bit over the years.

dogg--

>Have you been showing up at your interviews with nicotine stains and sideburns, wearing cowboy boots and the same Wal Mart suit that you were wearing 8 years ago<

This almost had me LOL, except I recall a few interviews with people who were dressed just like that. Me, I think my appearance is pretty well under control: Conservative navy pinstripes, white shirt, muted tie, black shiny dress shoes. But your point is well taken: My interview skills are probably in need of an overhaul. I know that my personality strikes most people as kind of subdued. I am as reserved and conservative in manner as in dress. I probably don't dazzle anyone.

Jeff--

>It will most likely take a 135- low-paying-twin-I-hope-I-don't--kill-myself-flying-job to make yourself competitive again. <

This has probably been my main stumbling block in the qualifications department. I'm reluctant to go out and kill myself. I've been a bit too choosy about who I'd fly for. And not just because I want to save my neck; I'm also concerned about getting accidents or violations on my record. And I've had the incredibly demoralizing experience of working for a 135 operation that treated me and other employees like $hit. So you're right -- the big question is whether I can put up with more of this BS in order to achieve this goal.

I'm fortunate in that I have a nice house to come home to (fully paid for), a reasonably nice (though not brand new) car and no debts of any kind. Nor do I have any family ties that bind me.

Thanks again to all who answered.

"7"

 

[bobbysamd]

Career changer

If you were flying for several years and only had 900tt and 50 multi then you probably weren't being much of a "go-getter." I seriously doubt that age was a determining factor.

To clarify that point, I was one of those who always wanted to learn how to fly but had not or could not consider it as a career possibility as a young person. Finally, I had enough stability in my life and finances to learn. I flew for fun and worked on ratings, primarily because I wanted to be a good pilot. I couldn't work on my ratings consistently because I had horrendous work schedules during those years. Finally, when I decided to make a change, all I needed were my multi ratings - which I obtained. I flew the Baron while I was applying, and applying, and applying to the commuters and a couple of freight. Several months later, I got me MEI; in fact, I took my ride the day before I flew to my ERAU interview. I was flying and instructing, and working at my day job (which was really a night-day job), which I had to keep until I could find a full-time flying job. I had no money or other means of support. So, that's why my times were where they were.

A resume may be a snapshot of one's quals but is not a portrait of a person's desire, enthusiasm, abilities and loyalty. I say again, all it would have taken would have been a phone interview if they didn't want to bring me in for a face-to-face meeting.