Large Cabin Aircraft opinions wanted

[Flyinjunk]

"It has just as many engines as a G-IV and almost the range."



uhhhhhhhh......................way wrong on the range pal!

 

[G100driver]

"It has just as many engines as a G-IV and almost the range."



uhhhhhhhh......................way wrong on the range pal!

what is the real world range of the G-iv. I understand that it is about 4000nm.

 

[GVFlyer]

what is the real world range of the G-iv. I understand that it is about 4000nm.

The G-IV is no longer made, it had a range guarantee of 4220nm. It's successor, the G400 had a range guarantee of 4120nm.

The current product, the G450, is a growth derivative of the G-IV created by joining the nose section and avionics of the G500/G550 to the G400 fuselage for a 12 inch longer cabin, adding FADEC BR 611-8 Tay engines and putting the jet on a drag diet. The G450 has a range guarantee of 4,350 nm with 8 passengers, a crew of three and NBAA reserves.

GV

 

[Flyinjunk]

The G-IV is no longer made, it had a range guarantee of 4220nm. It's successor, the G400 had a range guarantee of 4120nm.

The current product, the G450, is a growth derivative of the G-IV created by joining the nose section and avionics of the G500/G550 to the G400 fuselage for a 12 inch longer cabin, adding FADEC BR 611-8 Tay engines and putting the jet on a drag diet. The G450 has a range guarantee of 4,350 nm with 8 passengers, a crew of three and NBAA reserves.

GV

Whatever he said ^ G100! General dynetics effed up a perfectly good type classification system......imho
I miss my straight pipe G1159

 

[G100driver]

"It has just as many engines as a G-IV and almost the range."



uhhhhhhhh......................way wrong on the range pal!

I guess 400 NM is way wrong on the range. The discussion was on the EX not the straight 2000.

 

[fokkerjet]

What's going on with the corporate board? Used to be that every other thread was hijacked into something involving BBQ. So I try and carry the torch on this thread, and NADA!
bigD
You guys have gotten wound too tight, methinks.

Are you located by Austin? If so, I'm riding in Lance's "Ride for the Roses" in two weeks, what have I've gotten myself into with hills and crowds? I see they have nearly 6500 people signed up now, and I'm doing 70 miles. Where can I fuel up on BBQ also?

 

[bigD]

Are you located by Austin? If so, I'm riding in Lance's "Ride for the Roses" in two weeks, what have I've gotten myself into with hills and crowds? I see they have nearly 6500 people signed up now, and I'm doing 70 miles. Where can I fuel up on BBQ also?

Yep - I'm in Austin!

I've done "The Ride" a few years back on a mountain bike (with slicks). I did the 100 mile course. I don't know what your background is, but the hills shouldn't be too much of an issue. Austin lies on the eastern edge of the Hill Country, so the really hilly areas are to the west of town. Since the course is completely east of Austin, you won't have to deal with the hills all that much.

The crowds are another issue. Back when I rode, it was about half the size it is now. The real problem is that you have people of all skill levels riding out there. Even on the longer 70 and 100 mile courses, you'll find all sorts. You'll have beginners that can't ride a line to save their lives, and then the hard core people that are unwilling to give an inch of room to the newbies. I don't know where you fall in that range, but try and find riders with similar experience and form a group. The good news is that it's a very well supported ride, and given the volume of riders, they do a decent job of coordinating everything. Many of the same volunteers that handle the MS 150 in the Spring (10,000 riders!) also do the Ride for the Roses.

Feel free to PM me once you know your schedule. I'll give you some good BBQ tips while you're here!

 

[Flyinjunk]

I guess 400 NM is way wrong on the range. The discussion was on the EX not the straight 2000.

Nope wrong again.....you were way wrong in compareing a Dassholet to a Gulfstream!

 

[400A]

flyinjunk

I disagree with you. Besed on the mission scenario, the 2000EX is a valid competitor as G100 mentioned. I think we all understand the GIV has more range, however at 3800 IFR, the 2000EX would definately be considered. That still puts it within 10% of the GIV's range.

I see his point.

I also dont see that General Dynamics has done anything to hurt the Gulfstream product line. Not to mention the #1 ranked product support. If more range, more saftey features, and more advanced cock-pits is EFFED-UP as you say then so be it.

 

[Flyinjunk]

I disagree with you. Besed on the mission scenario, the 2000EX is a valid competitor as G100 mentioned. I think we all understand the GIV has more range, however at 3800 IFR, the 2000EX would definately be considered. That still puts it within 10% of the GIV's range.

I see his point.

I also dont see that General Dynamics has done anything to hurt the Gulfstream product line. Not to mention the #1 ranked product support. If more range, more saftey features, and more advanced cock-pits is EFFED-UP as you say then so be it.

"Besed on the mission scenario"


Bro please you are killing me. A 2000ex(cuse) actually making a 3800 nm leg into anything more then a ummmmmm20knot avg headwind uhhhhhhh aint gonna happen!

"I think we all understand the GIV has more range, however at 3800 IFR, the 2000EX would definately be considered."


Want to hear waht me thinks??? shurre it could be considered from an eggheaded beancounting four eyed having perspective. Why ? Because its an over enginered piece of crap.

"If more range, more saftey features, and more advanced cock-pits is EFFED-UP as you say then so be it."

Hey bud calm the EFF down pulleeezzze. I wuz merely reminiszing!

 

[400A]

Junk

Did you have anything informative to say, or did you just come to trash a perfectly good thread?

You have bashed eveything anyone had to say on this thread.

You have an obvious issue with Falcons. Are you affraid of them?

By the way IFR range is stated in zero wind conditions.. DUH!!!!

 

[Flyinjunk]

Did you have anything informative to say, or did you just come to trash a perfectly good thread?

You have bashed eveything anyone had to say on this thread.

You have an obvious issue with Falcons. Are you affraid of them?

By the way IFR range is stated in zero wind conditions.. DUH!!!!

"Aircraft Experience: BE400A,MU300,BE200,BE90,SA226
Flight Experience: Civilian
Ratings: BE400, MU300
Current Position: Chief Pilot
Total Time: 5000"

"affraid of them?"

You were asking for suggestions on large cabin aircraft types.
Are you affraid of them??? Go Falcoon or Dumbbardier, I couldnt give a rats ass either way.

"By the way IFR range is stated in zero wind conditions.. DUH!!!![/QUOTE"


BTW Does Mitsubitchi have ETOPS requirements for MU series acft feet whet over any body of water bigger than Lake Supeerior???

 

[banned username 2]

The G-IV is no longer made, it had a range guarantee of 4220nm. It's successor, the G400 had a range guarantee of 4120nm.

The current product, the G450, is a growth derivative of the G-IV created by joining the nose section and avionics of the G500/G550 to the G400 fuselage for a 12 inch longer cabin, adding FADEC BR 611-8 Tay engines and putting the jet on a drag diet. The G450 has a range guarantee of 4,350 nm with 8 passengers, a crew of three and NBAA reserves.

GV

Prime example of a logical, informative, very well written, thought out post...

"Besed on the mission scenario"

Bro please you are killing me. A 2000ex(cuse) actually making a 3800 nm leg into anything more then a ummmmmm20knot avg headwind uhhhhhhh aint gonna happen!

Want to hear waht me thinks??? shurre it could be considered from an eggheaded beancounting four eyed having perspective. Why ? Because its an over enginered piece of crap.

Hey bud calm the EFF down pulleeezzze. I wuz merely reminiszing!

Go Falcoon or Dumbbardier, I couldnt give a rats ass either way.

BTW Does Mitsubitchi have ETOPS requirements for MU series acft feet whet over any body of water bigger than Lake Supeerior???

Prime example of why we have the IGNORE feature in the Forums...

.

 

[G100driver]

Nope wrong again.....you were way wrong in compareing a Dassholet to a Gulfstream!

"Lighten up, Frances." -Sgt. Hulka

 

[Kiwi]

Prime example of why we have the IGNORE feature in the Forums...

Well said Falcon Capt...

Now where's that ignore button???

 

[banned username 2]

Well said Falcon Capt...

Now where's that ignore button???

It isn't real easy to find, but...

Go up to the top of the page to the USER CP link, then once there on the left side under Miscellaneous there is a link called Buddy/Ignore Lists... You can add usernames there...

Hope this helps!

 

[Silver Wings]

Just a thooought

I've read all this thread, and being new to this game just want to pose a question.

How come nobody is looking at the Legacy by Embraer?

The gov't just did a deal to use it over water for surveillance with Lockheed Martin systems aboard. They're setting up to build airframse in FL....but perhaps not the Legacy. The basic elements engines/avionics/APU/interior is US built anyway.

It has a $20mil price tag. That's millions less than anything being discussed.

It does the distance. having an effective range well over 3,000nm.

It has a virtually Gulftstream look alike cabin. Great (HUGE) baggage capacity and you can access during flight.

It has lowest operating costs (forget Conklin checkout the real figures with an actual operator). The regionals wouldn't use it (in ERJ format) if it was so expensive to operate they live and die in cents not $$$ on operating cost.

There are hundreds of the ERJ's all over the world, and with millions and millions of hours experience and no accidents.....certainly nobody has ever been hurt on an Embraer jet that I've heard about. The ERJ fleet guarantees a solid support structure, and the experience on the airframe is unbeatbale.

It has lots of systems redunacy (required for an airliner). I've flown on a few and the ride, comfort and cockpit are great.

I don't know about the Hawaii route...lot of water...but as far as IFSR for the engines they're Rolls Royce and currently performanig at least 4 times better than required for a 180 ETOPS !!! Hence if a twin engine stands a chance, then the Legacy should certainly be on the serious review list. At least that would seem logical.

Or is this a big ego thing.....

As I can see from your question you are very much trying to get best value for money that can do the job for the boss..... not just maximum number of not required features and toys for the boys.

 

[LegacyDriver]

The Legacy is a fantastic airplane. I admit I am biased. The only thing that may be an issue with it would be range. I don't know off the top of my head the max. endurance for one, but I *am* certain it is significantly less less than the G-String.

The airplane itself is marvelous, especially for the crew. It is just about as redundant in the systems area as any airplane can possibly be, and up high in cruise it is really quiet.

Depending on the mission the Legacy would not be a bad choice by any stretch of the imagination and it is very affordable (not to mention a joy to fly).

 

[Silver Wings]

Legacy Range

I just looked at the web page for the Legacy. www.legacybyembraer.com

It has 3,250nm, NBAA reserves.... that should be OK for Hawaii !

Why have over 4,000nm range and a very much higher purchase price and operating costs if it isn't required.

Before going over the water the driftdown and depressurization may be an issue, but looking at the fuel burn again I don't see this as in issue. The manufacturer could run these numbers.

If US coast to coast is the main activity and requirement is up to 11 pax, then the pax requirement takes out the CL604/CL300/F2000/F50 series straight away.....so why are we wasting time talking about them ?

Having said that they even built 12 seat H800's.... imagine that ! That's 12 pax seats in the back. There'd be so short of space I bet the pax would have to empty their pockets before boarding, ha !

 

[Mudworm]

Ran a flight plan on a generic Lagacy KLAX-PHNL at M.78 with 12 pax. I used January winds (-40 kts)

Time: 5:35
Fuel burn: 13,500
Reserves:3964 or 1.9 hours

ETP for Depressurization 10,000 ft cruise alt for KLAX-PHOG with 3255 Lbs of fuel remaining or over an hours worth.

Looks like it should be in the running as long as you are considering a twin with less than Gulfstream redundency.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Looks like it should be in the running as long as you are considering a twin with less than Gulfstream redundency.

Less redundant than a Gulfstream? How so?

The Legacy is about as systems redundant an airplane as you can possibly find.

 

[Silver Wings]

Systems redundant

Legacy might have lots of redundancy in avionics, electrics, hydraulics, microwave, ovens, DVD,s multichannel sound systems, dual channel satcom, etc etc.....


but they only got one coffee machine...... and that sucks.....

Less redundant than a Gulfstream? How so?

The Legacy is about as systems redundant an airplane as you can possibly find.

 

[Mudworm]

Less redundant than a Gulfstream? How so?

The Legacy is about as systems redundant an airplane as you can possibly find.[/


Legacy Driver,

I meant that with no disrespect to the Legacy. I happen to have 500 hours in the first 29 SN ERJ-145's. Was an FO at XJT and was in the first group of professionals to fly the ERJ. I actualy enjoyed flying that aircraft allot and from what I have read the Lagacy has some great improvements an I would consider it a worthy large cabin aircraft.

I then had the opertunity to move into the corporate world and have been flying GIV's, GV's and most of the Citation lineup (minus the X). I also had the opertunity to fly the Falcon 2000 which has an electical system most similar to the Legacy (I think). I flew that aircraft to Europe at least 15 times and would not hesitate to do so again. (the straight 2000 is a little lite on fuel for Hawaii in the winter)

The fact is that you cannot agrue the fact that when you are 2.5 hours from the nearest alternate it feels better to have another source of electrical power besides the 2 generators and the APU (if you can eveb use that in cruise) and the battery which will give you 30 minutes max. The GIV has a Hydraulic pwered generator that can supply enough power to run the entire essential bus.

Does that mean that it is unsafe to fly the Legacy or DA-2000 on long over water legs? I don't think so. What it comes down to is whether or not your boss, who is footing the bill has the extra cash to afford the higher DOC's and purchase price or the Gulfstream or if he thinks the the extra cost is worth the extra safety margin.

Worm

 

[AA717driver]

Great thread!

BigD--I'll take your challenge. Most BBQ hauled out of a short strip? You gotta go with the corporate version of the C-130. A little noisy but a huge cabin and pretty long legs. And it hauls a TON of BBQ... Literally. TC

 

[banned username 2]

Mmmmm... BBQ!!!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Last time I looked the ERJ had FIVE generators, any single one of which is capable of powering the entire aircraft. APU is usuable all the way to max altitude.

 

[Silver Wings]

Information not opinion

The fact is that you cannot agrue the fact that when you are 2.5 hours from the nearest alternate it feels better to have another source of electrical power besides the 2 generators and the APU (if you can eveb use that in cruise) and the battery which will give you 30 minutes max. The GIV has a Hydraulic pwered generator that can supply enough power to run the entire essential bus.

Does that mean that it is unsafe to fly the Legacy or DA-2000 on long over water legs? I don't think so. What it comes down to is whether or not your boss, who is footing the bill has the extra cash to afford the higher DOC's and purchase price or the Gulfstream or if he thinks the the extra cost is worth the extra safety margin.
Worm

The Legacy has five electrical generators, dual brushless DC generators on each engine and an APU that can be operated to ceiling. Any generator can power all the electrics on the aircraft. There are also two batteries.
If you loose all electrics on this aircraft you're really having a bad day.

 

[Mudworm]

The Legacy has five electrical generators, dual brushless DC generators on each engine and an APU that can be operated to ceiling. Any generator can power all the electrics on the aircraft. There are also two batteries.
If you loose all electrics on this aircraft you're really having a bad day.

I stand corrected Thank you for jogging my memmory! It has been 7 years and 6 Initial schools since I last flew the ERJ.

Worm

 

[AA717driver]

How dare you mention that Legacy(sneer) in the same thread with a Gulfstream!? Begone, chattel! TC

 

[400A]

Winter winds

What are the average and worst case wints I should plan for enroute to HI.

Is the Legacys 3250 miles enough? How about wet footprint?