Landing clearance???

[jergbsn]

Some grumps might get pissy, but it's much better than screwing something up and getting in trouble, or worse...

Who cares if they get upset, that's what they are there for. To help us out... Always, always, ask if your uncertain

 

[skiandsurf]

I know this is probably not right, but here is my story...

Flying into EWR, VFR conditions, cleared for the visual 22L. Tower is talking to everyone but us. The plane behind me checks in at the marker and the tower says "number 2, cleared to land behind the jetstream on short final". I was the jetstream on short final. I still could not get a word in. I knew that the tower knew about us, he just talked about us. I could see that the runway was clear. We landed and I called the tower as we rolled onto the highspeed exit, saying " Nerwark tower it XYZ clear of 22L on taxiway "E"". He had no problem with what we did. My reasoning for not going around, it would have created a bigger problem.

This was over 10 years ago, never been in that situation since.

 

[minitour]

I need to hear those words...it's just something I have to hear.

I flew down 6L at CLE about 1500' one day because they forgot they switched me to the L vs the R and didn't clear me to land, then I couldn't get in a word...finally cleared me to land.

I've just gotta hear those words.

-mini

 

[Sniper Bob]

It's a two-way street, my friend. I only spent about a year in a tower (Dayton, OH) but in that time I was really taken aback at the number of times (probably twice a month) someone came sliding down final with nary a word and touched down. Usually they'd turn off the runway, then you could see them hesitate... and they'd come up on ground frequency.

Once in a while, someone would ask, "uh, tower, did we check in?" My stock answer was, "I didn't hear you so I shot you the green light". Covering your A, there, Cappy.

Other than the powerlines, that's my second-most hated recurring dream.

I've also gotten the "cessna 12345, no need to respond, cleared to land 17R" while in the flare.

 

[Vector4fun]

If I don't remember somebody checking in on final, I'll generally just broadcast "XXX123, cleared to land Rwy17" or similar. Sometimes they answer, sometimes they don't, no biggie. If I needed somebody to go around, I'd be in the final controller's ear, or on guard freq. or something. 99% of the time, I don't. The if the crew asks a sheepish question clearing the runway, we're all covered.

Of course, I'm in a radar tower and have been watching your tag for 15 miles. Where it might be more of a problem is at the little Class D tower without radar. That controller might have forgotten you, and really need a reminder that you're short final....

 

[FL420]

If I'm passing about 500 feet above TDZE assuming a clear runway or a little lower with an aircraft still on the runway and haven't heard the magic words cleared to land I bust in with verify(callsign) is cleared to land. If I don't get a positive response I tell the PF/PNF to prepare to go around.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Yes it is

mmm.......If you think thats a landing clearence boss, you best go back and relearn alot especially if you claim to be flying the Shorts, appears that you haven't a clue

I don't mean to harp on people on this board, but if somone asks a legitamate question on this board concerning procedures and saftey and you haven't a clue or don't know for sure, don't give an answer. Leave it to the ones that know the answer to answer. Jetspeed, I really hope you were joking cause if I told a gulfstream he was number 2 following a cessna on a two mile final and he turned base and landed, well......That just doens't happen to often because most pilots know thats a "hey, plane, your following another plane on final...let me know when you have him in sight and youll get the magic words "Gulfstream1234 #2 follow the cessna short final, runway 14 cleared to land."

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Let me reiterate something here too everyone, just a bit of ATC knowledge. I have a Yak land today behind a bonanza and the rwy distance requirments for a single behind a single is 3000ft of runway, yes, your cleared to land even though someone is still on the runway, He chewed my ear off telling me that I couldn't do that....Guess what, I can and I do and I will.

 

[great cornholio]

Let me reiterate something here too everyone, just a bit of ATC knowledge. I have a Yak land today behind a bonanza and the rwy distance requirments for a single behind a single is 3000ft of runway, yes, your cleared to land even though someone is still on the runway, He chewed my ear off telling me that I couldn't do that....Guess what, I can and I do and I will.

I've only seen that a few times as it seems like most controllers would rather have the 2nd prop guy do S turns or go around then have the 3000ft seperation. So most guys probably have never seen this in thier life...and I cant really think of were a pilot can read that kind of stuff and I forget how I learned it. On the other hand I have heard N1234 expidite past Blank intersection...followed by N4567 cleared to land....

 

[great cornholio]

Ok back to the original quesion. It is pretty common to hear "Cleared to land number 2 behind a blah" With that you hear the magic words cleared to land so it counts as a landing clearance. If you hear something like "Youre number 2 for runway 17 following a Cessna on the left base" then it is not a landing clearance. However you can expect a landing clearance when you get the traffic in sight and report it to tower or the other traffic clears the runway.

 

[81Horse]

I've only seen that a few times as it seems like most controllers would rather have the 2nd prop guy do S turns or go around then have the 3000ft seperation. ....

At BFI, they used to run two same-side traffic patterns to the long runway (10000'): one pattern turned base at midfield, the other flew the full downwind to a normal base -- for simultaneous operations to the runway. It's like having two 5000' runways in trail. They probably still do it.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

At BFI, they used to run two same-side traffic patterns to the long runway (10000'): one pattern turned base at midfield, the other flew the full downwind to a normal base -- for simultaneous operations to the runway. It's like having two 5000' runways in trail. They probably still do it.

Never heard of that. Is that even legal. You state that they use to. Any reason they discontinued it?

 

[SSDD]

Before PHX became a hub they used to do the same thing with light aircraft...takeoff from midfield and land on the numbers.

 

[Alin10123]

I hate to have to ask this at over 30 hours, but here it is:

If the tower says to you, "Cessna123 you're number 2 to land behind the Cherokee"...Is this a clearnce to land?

I had this happen to me today, and I would've asked my instructor had he been there.

What i do is i repeat back the instructions and then when i have aircraft in sight i say "cessna 123 has cherokee in sight". Then i'll just follow him in the pattern. Then somewhere between now and the time i get close tower will come back and say "cessna 123 clear to land runway x" or somethign along that line. If i dont get the clearance to land i'll either ask, or assume that i'm to go around which the tower will usually tell me to if the previous aircraft hasn't cleared the runway yet.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Before PHX became a hub they used to do the same thing with light aircraft...takeoff from midfield and land on the numbers.

That I can undertand, an intersection takeoff midfield and landing on the numbers, but split the runway for landing?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

What i do is i repeat back the instructions and then when i have aircraft in sight i say "cessna 123 has cherokee in sight". Then i'll just follow him in the pattern. Then somewhere between now and the time i get close tower will come back and say "cessna 123 clear to land runway x" or somethign along that line. If i dont get the clearance to land i'll either ask, or assume that i'm to go around which the tower will usually tell me to if the previous aircraft hasn't cleared the runway yet.

If you don't have the landing clearence solicite one. If a plane is still on the runway, don't go around unless ATC has instructed you to because like i posted earlier, its perfectly legal for us controllers to have 2 planes on the runway at once.....

Here is a basic rundown of RWY seperation

single behind a single.....3000ft
single behind a twin.......3000ft
twin behind a single.......4500ft
twin behind a twin.........4500ft
helicopter behind twin/single....no seperation requirments
Jet.............................6000ft and clear

there is more to it then that but i don't feel like quoting from the .65

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Those figures still seem kind of close, doesn't ATC usually afford more room generally?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Those figures still seem kind of close, doesn't ATC usually afford more room generally?

Hell no, not here....we use minimum rwy speration. My theory is if i don't send one around a week im not doing my job right, we are the bussiness of saftely seperating and expidioutiously moving airplanes. If i don't send one around a week then im wasting too much sky. Its just like 3 in trail in the tracon.....controller moves it to 4 for extra space....less planes land, more delays etc....we got to move em close....

 

[81Horse]

Never heard of that. Is that even legal. You state that they use to. Any reason they discontinued it?

I haven't flown out of BFI for a few years. So far as I know, they still use the procedure (it's a great way to park touch-and-go traffic in its own little pattern). It was a local procedure, completely legal; probably safer than LAHSO, IMO.

 

[Cappytan]

It's a two-way street, my friend. I only spent about a year in a tower (Dayton, OH) but in that time I was really taken aback at the number of times (probably twice a month) someone came sliding down final with nary a word and touched down. Usually they'd turn off the runway, then you could see them hesitate... and they'd come up on ground frequency.

Once in a while, someone would ask, "uh, tower, did we check in?" My stock answer was, "I didn't hear you so I shot you the green light". Covering your A, there, Cappy.

Bet it taught those "students" a lesson too.....good for you! Any chance we can shine the light back to "cover yours"?.....so we don't get slapped.