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Lack of professionalism

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lets say that you and I are pilots working for different operators, but from the same airports. You happen to know that I am flying unprofessionally, in a manner that endangers the public, busting minimums, taking off without adequate fuel reserves, just behaving as a general menace to society. There is no professional body that you can take my case to so that my behavior would be judged by a group of my peers and who are able to sanction me for the improvement of the profession. it doesn't exist. The only recourse you may have is to rat me out to the feds, and while that might be appropriate, that is a long way from being self regulating.

To use your own words: Endangers the public. I would assert that there are many more and easier ways to endanger passengers and people on the ground alike as a pilot than many many other lines of work. In fact, there are ever-present pressures to do that very thing all around every one of us. The critical nature of airplane operation in that sense doesn't really lend itself a great deal to a quiet group of elders handing down remediation. It is generally governed by the understanding that if you step out of line the feds will one day get you. In fact, listen to the way you stated the only alternative: "rat me out to the feds". Would you have said "rat me out to the state BAR"?

The practice of medicine or even that of being an attorney has existed for centuries(one certainly even longer than the other). Medicine, as a popular example in this discussion has existed across continents and governments of all kinds. How old is the AMA? A quick google says 1847. Now how old is the entire vocation of aviating? The technology itself is only a shade over 100 years old.....people didn't begin doing it with any volume for decades yet. And then the NACA was developed and the FAA from that. I mean, nobody even knew who the FAA was for a long dam time. But the young and rapidly growing industry needed some sort of oversight and the government found their way in to doing that very thing....sort of squashing the need and potential effectiveness of a professional organization with a very fluid and new set of operating parameters.

And, it is worth mentioning, that ALPA does, in fact, have a Professional Standards department. When a member crosses someone's invisible line they often get turned over to pro standards.

Pilots are a funny breed. Even the airline pilot group remains a territorial and generally independently thinking group of people. We are taught from day one to follow a set of rules while always maintaining the ability to think and make decisions for ourselves or with our crews..often times against outside pressures and influences. It is an industry of working people that would be pretty hard to talk in to joining one across-the-board union or professional group. The fact that it doesn't exist might more readily point out yet another difference that we may discuss versus most other groups of people(in general). Maybe AOPA or EAA should take more of a regulatory role with its member group, but I doubt it would be good for business. And how many attorneys or doctors would join the AMA or BAR Ass'n if they didn't have to? More than one, I would guess.
 
BTW I worked for a plummer for a year. Every time something comes up that bothers me on the job I just think to myself: thank god I'm not a plummer anymore (while I visualize myself in a ditch filled with crap being yelled at by a guy who's fat enough to make captain.)
I think I know why bein' a plummer (sic) didn't work out.
 
NFL/NBA player: professional?
CPA: professional?
Stock broker: professional?
Donald Trump or Mark Cuban: professional?

A-Squared, not sure I'm buying your arguments. They seem to be focused on careers like medical and law.
 
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There is no professional body that you can take my case to so that my behavior would be judged by a group of my peers and who are able to sanction me for the improvement of the profession. it doesn't exist. The only recourse you may have is to rat me out to the feds, and while that might be appropriate, that is a long way from being self regulating.

Actually, both ALPA and the Airline and Fractional sides of the Teamsters has Professional Standards committees. Also, I am willing to bet that the APA and IPA have similar committees. Such organizations involve peer scrutiny when it comes to unprofessional conduct and they do indeed advance the profession. Granted, these committees aren't as centralized as the AMA or the ABA. However, I do believe they qualify under the standards as you presented them when it comes to peer scrutiny for the sake of improving the profession.

General Disclaimer; I am not implying that pilots not represented by unions or associations are any less professional.
 
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I think I know why bein' a plummer (sic) didn't work out.

Yeah I had a problem spelling "crap all over my hands" too.

As I bow down to your mastery of spelling I'll leave you all with a plumber's joke:

2 Things you need to know in Plumbing:

1 Pay day is on Friday.
2 Don't eat the last bite of your sandwich.
 
In fact, listen to the way you stated the only alternative: "rat me out to the feds". Would you have said "rat me out to the state BAR"?

Just to clarify, I phrased it that way, not to reflect my own thoughts, but to make the point of how many who operate airborne machinery view such an action. We both know that among many, reporting a pilot to the FAA is the one unpardonable sin. And there is a vast gulf between taking an issue you may have with a pilot to "them", the authorities, and "taking care of the problem amongst ourselves" It is not a trivial distinction.
 
Actually, both ALPA and the Airline and Fractional sides of the Teamsters has Professional Standards committees. Also, I am willing to bet that the APA and IPA have similar committees.

I am aware of these. I bet IBEW and other trade unions have similar organs. I think that they are good things, and I don't intend to disparage those institutions in the least. I've had a couple of times when I wished that I could sit down with a professional standards group and say hey, look, this guy's pulling some ********************, and maybe someone ought to sit him down and have a talk with him.

However, those trade unions are only applicable at some specific workplaces. Me, I don't work at any of those companies. So, you are aware that I'm a menace to society, how does reporting me to ALPA's pro standards comittee do anything at all? It doesn't . Failing my being employed at a company which is unionized, the only recourse you have is reporting me to the government. There is no structure in place to sit me down with group of my colleagues and say, Hey your behavior isn't acceptable and its a detriment to the occupation, you need to shape up.

However, if I'm an attorney in, say Alaska, regardless of who I work for, the Alaska bar association can sanction me up to and including disbarrment, and I don't know the particulars, but I believe that it would be difficult or impossible to join the bar in any other state if I was disbarred in Alaska.

That is a very different thing, and that is what is meant by "self regulating"

General Disclaimer; I am not implying that pilots not represented by unions or associations are any less professional.

Not taken as such.
 
That is a very different thing, and that is what is meant by "self regulating"

Yes, it is a different thing but, IMHO, not different enough. Another poster made mention that the AMA, ABA et al are much more established due their respective professions' longer history. It is conceivable, and even feasible for a pilot group equivalent in the future.

I just don't think that it is as black and white as you seem to make it.
 
This is a profession, an art, a craft , that has produced voices like St.Ex,and Ernie Gann, it has inspired art and prose, we leap continents,and oceans, pierce the clouds,and weather,touch the very heart of the sky itself ,I don't know maybe a freightdog looks at it as just another job,but I flew a DC3 for 10 years, round this planet, and I never felt about the profession the way you do A squared. This thing of ours is a sacred trust, I'm not dissing tradesmen,God knows ,all labor is worthy of respect,but what we do is different, and it is special,and it is worthy of respect,and professional compensation,certainly at the white collar level, but I do confess there was many an exhausted hard days night flying the 3 ,when I looked at my collar and felt a twinge of blue,that was some hard work, pax flying is cake by comparison, Cheers brothers,peace out.

Well spoken and the one post worth reading in the previous 4 pages of crap.
 
Haven't been to this forum in a loooong time. I remember why now. Same antagonists, same crapola spread across different subjects.

Adios
 

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