KLAS Departures

[Tgaug6300]

Hopefully we have some KLAS Controlers on here that could answer a question for me? As a Corporate Pilot we always park on the West side of the field. Many times we are (at the FBO) right next to the approach end of 19R, yet controllers will have us taxi all the way over to 25R for departure (usually for the STAAV Dep,for heading to the East).

I was told that if you tell the controllers that "For Operational Purposes" you would like RWY 19L or 19R they will give you a departure that corresponds with that runway. Is this correct, and if so is that published somewhere?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

and what would these operational purposes be? Getting in the air quicker, stopping everyone else at the appropriate runway from departing?

 

[Tgaug6300]

That is why I'm asking if something is published that perhaps defines what these purposes would be. Thanks for your helpful reply.

 

[Famous Dave]

I am not a controller. But I think it depends on which direction you are heading and what ATC is doing with the arrivals. I don't see why you coudn't use the TRALR2 but maybe they don't want you messing up the inbounds from the west. This is just a guess. I do see a lot of simultaneous departures from 19's and 25 on a daily basis. So maybe it's just a once in a while thing. I used to fly corporate and I agree, that is one b!tch of a taxi.

 

[BEfly]

I'm in Vegas.....a lot. I'm there 15 times a month. I've taxied to 25R like 3 times, its a long way! Esp from Atlantic.

When filing your route, make sure that you choose a departure that will work for RWY 19. The STAAV is a RWY 25 departure only. I'm no controller, and some ATC procedures mystify me still. But if you file STAAV4, and the controller doesn't catch it and change it up, you are probably going to get 25R. Instead, file the TRALR2 or PRFUM2. I'd go with TRALR. Its an RNAV with transitions all over the place, and its applicable for ALL runways in All directions.

 

[SELCAL checks]

Operational Necessity is usually invoked when you don't have the performance to use a particular runway.

You'd probably be hard pressed to explain why you weren't able to use a 14,500 ft runway, but you had the numbers for a 8900 ft runway. Unless you can show that you would have been unable to meet the non-standard climb requirement off 25R of 220'/nm to 2400 feet.

 

[THE Flying Ace]

We don't make it into Vegas much but each time I have filed the TRALR departure and every time ATC has changed us to the STAAV departure. This makes the taxi very long and of course, there was a day it was blazing hot, our AC wasn't working.

I too would like to know if there are any secrets to getting RWY 19 flying to the east.

 

[SDCFI]

You folks obviously don't have the "big picture". (Sarcasm)

Take a look at the arrivals. The ones from the NW - SW all end up bringing the traffic South of the field. The TRALR takes the departures off 19 and 25 to the South then East, whereas the STAAV takes you North then East. Probably easier to just have all Eastbound departures use 25. ATCers are human too, some are just lazy and don't want the extra work. Can't say as I blame them!

 

[say again]

Request 19 and take it from there.

 

[gutshotdraw]

A little history.

Prior to 9/11, the "right turn out" off of Runway 25R was common practice for aircraft destined for the northeast. Corporate operators were usually assigned 19R with a left turn out, held down under the arrivals, and then climbed out over Lake Mead. Post-9/11 paranoia ended the right turn out because of concerns about the overflight of Nellis Air Force Base airspace. So, for about 7 years, LAS ATC was forced to shove the proverbial 10 pounds of airplanes into a 5 pound bag through the same departure gate to the southwest. Something had to give as the departure delays began to climb.

About 3 years ago, FAA published their intent to restore the right turn out with an RNAV departure (precision guidance) that would stay out of Nellis airspace. The hue and cry from the noise whiner residents of Summerlin and the other northwest-side neighborhoods was huge including a threat by our gin-swilling Mayor to file suit against it.

Long story a little shorter: no lawsuit, right turn out reinstated, departure delays reduced, but corporate operators screaming because, if you are going anywhere northeast, you MUST taxi to 25R and you MUST take the STAAV unless winds or ATC operational considerations deem otherwise. If the destination is somewhere other than northeast, the runway assignment and departure procedure are negotiable. If you're going to Teeterhole or Chicago, or anywhere else in that general direction, enjoy the tour of the airport and try not to burn up your brakes on the downhill taxi...

You can also cross your fingers that the winds are howling out of the north so you can use 1L/R

Hope this helps.

 

[NCherches]

Pre-9/11 they would also allow Kepec 1 arrivals a Right Downwind for 19R/L and nearly almost gave it to you. The controllers would even tell you to cross the Stratosphere at 3K and turn you base there.... guess people got too nervous... Seems like Kepec 1 now leads you to 25L more and more often since then.

 

[gutshotdraw]

It wasn't the KEPEC then but it's true. The right downwind coming from LA or the right base coming from Reno to 19R with a turn about the Stupak Stump (as we called it) was always a fun ride. For the crew and the folks on the tower observation deck.

 

[T-1GUY]

It's a note on the airport diagram. If you want to wait in a long line burning fuel then go ahead and use 25. I feel for "operation necessity" ie fuel on board, I need to takeoff on 19. Also, I believe on the airport diagram it lists hours 2000-0800 only...

 

[gutshotdraw]

They don't care. If you're going northeast and the winds aren't howling out of the north or south, you're doing the STAAV off of 25R. We all tried the "operational necessity" thing. Not so much.

The only way out that I can think of is probably to file a flight plan that indicates you are unable RNAV departures since the STAAV is an RNAV SID.

 

[spxdriver]

The STAAV SID is issued to all RNAV-capable aircraft filing over MLF, BCE, DVC, and the STAAV SID only serves Runways 25.***** The Center host computer automatically gives you the STAAV based on your route; requesting another runway and SID requires the Flight Data position in the tower to manually input your requested SID and coordinate that with TRACON.

The Tower really doesn't care if you try to game the system and they are not the ones who will ask FSDO to investigate your "operational need."

However, the Traffic Management Unit might be very interested to know why you can't accept the STAAV SID off Runway 25 if your "operation need" causes a delay or reduces through-put when they're swamped with traffic.

A little background:***** Because of KLAS's runway geometry and no LAHSO, every Rwy 19 movement stops a Rwy 25 movement.********** Further slowing through-put is the fact that on all but the STAAV SID, all departures from both runway complexes turn to a common waypoint (ROPPR) and those aircraft have to separated, causing more delay as departures are metered to that fix.

By sequencing Rwy 25 departures via SID, KLAS can launch a STAAV followed by a BOACH followed by STAAV then a SHEAD then STAAV followed by a COWBY. ***** Right turn, left turn, right turn, left turn ... you get the idea. They can fling departures off in a very rapid succession.

If KLAS is in a high demand period, using Rwy 19 for a Northeast route could cost you a delay until a hole can be made in the Rwy 25 L&R streams to accommodate a Rwy 19 departure.***** By the way, the highest through-put at McCarran is a straight dual Rwy 25 configuration and that's how they'll operate at peak traffic.

If traffic is light, you can hope for a minimal delay off Rwy 19 but keep in mind that if your route of flight is over MLF, BCE, DVC and you elect not to fly the STAAV SID off Rwy 25 you will be flying a counter-clockwise track around the Las Vegas Valley with step climbs instead of a right turn off Rwy 25 with an unrestricted climb and transitioning to your first en route fix.

An occasional playing of the "Operational Need" trick probably won't bring much attention to you, but if you're a frequent user of KLAS and you always play that game you could aggravate the TMU to the point where FSDO will be contacting you to discuss your unique Operational Need.

I don't want to sound pedantic about this -- with traffic being lighter now than in the past, flying the TRALR SID is easier than when KLAS was running at peak capacity.***** If you request Rwy 19 give some thought as to the impact it's going to have on the rest of the airport and whether eating a delay for a Rwy 19 departure window is worth it.

 

[Tgaug6300]

Thank you for the reply SPXDRIVER, good information!

 

[NCherches]

I always wondered what fun it would be if we ever had to go around off of the 19's and they have departed an airliner off of 25R... Seems like everytime I land on 19 there is a Southwest right in front of me heading west off of 25R...