King of the Union

[OPECJet]

Considering the pathetic manner the recall has regressed into a character assassination hosted by a group who are still upset they lost the last election, I can't imaging why anyone would ever consider running for office or volunteering again.

On another note, Raj has a point. Even if you believe he's the anti-Christ, only a fool would refuse to acknowledge the fact he's an outstanding negotiator. Love him or despise him, I personally would prefer him sitting on our side of the table during Section 6.

An outstanding negotiator who lacks the respect of the side he is negotiating with will get nowhere. The upcoming negotiations are going to get messy no matter who's at the helm. With Luthi in control they will be even worse. Mark it down and if I'm wrong, I'll own it.

 

[jetlag7]

Was Luthi part of the IBB negotiations ?

What has he successfully negotiated so far? He sure as hell hasn't been able to successfully negotiate anything in the post Santulli era.

He was lead negotiator for both the 2005 CBA and IBB (aka 2007 CBA).

As far as what has happened post-Santulli, I don't see how it's possible to negotiate anything when the other side refuses to sit down and talk. (at least for anything longer than 6 minutes)

 

[jetlag7]

The upcoming negotiations are going to get messy no matter who's at the helm......

I completely agree with this particular statement.

 

[jtf]

Which is exactly why I want Luthi's experience negotiating against the union busters. They will be looking for concessions and I know he isn't going to go on that direction.

 

[Pervis]

Which is exactly why I want Luthi's experience negotiating against the union busters. They will be looking for concessions and I know he isn't going to go on that direction.

Nor will anyone else, regardless of our financials. Besides, only an idiot would even consider concessions after management just claimed the second most proftable year, even with little in sales revenue.

 

[BentOver]

Nor will anyone else, regardless of our financials. Besides, only an idiot would even consider concessions after management just claimed the second most proftable year, even with little in sales revenue.

They're not exactly playing by the usual " we're losing money so give us concessions" playbook are they....

 

[jtf]

They are already taking concessions through contract erosion. If they decide not to extend the contract it's because they think we are weak and can save compared to the relatively cheap extension. With all the union infighting and the popularity contest we have going on, we are weak. It doesn't help when the majority of the pilots are comfortable and afraid to loose what they have verses being willing to really fight for their contract. Even the possibility of a picket in Omaha made the majority almost pee their own pants. I'm not saying it was a brilliant idea, but the freak out over the possibility showed management how little fight there is right now. I think they would be stupid not to open negotiations after our collective shows if weakness. I only hope the masses will get riled up again when the company just delays a new contract and lowballs for the next 5 or so years. But I am also kind of afraid that a new Post A would pass without enough willpower to push for anything descent or even approaching inflation raises. We really are only worth whatever we can negotiate and I don't think the group has the stones to take on the company anymore. Please prove me wrong. At least I know that Luthi is willing to try to be tough enough.

 

[BentOver]

They are already taking concessions through contract erosion. If they decide not to extend the contract it's because they think we are weak and can save compared to the relatively cheap extension. With all the union infighting and the popularity contest we have going on, we are weak. It doesn't help when the majority of the pilots are comfortable and afraid to loose what they have verses being willing to really fight for their contract. Even the possibility of a picket in Omaha made the majority almost pee their own pants. I'm not saying it was a brilliant idea, but the freak out over the possibility showed management how little fight there is right now. I think they would be stupid not to open negotiations after our collective shows if weakness. I only hope the masses will get riled up again when the company just delays a new contract and lowballs for the next 5 or so years. But I am also kind of afraid that a new Post A would pass without enough willpower to push for anything descent or even approaching inflation raises. We really are only worth whatever we can negotiate and I don't think the group has the stones to take on the company anymore. Please prove me wrong. At least I know that Luthi is willing to try to be tough enough.

I guess it depends on which who you talk to and who you believe...I don't think management has all that much leverage against the group as of yet. Not enough to get a concessionary contract.

From a negotiating standpoint.... It is always better to negotiate during good economic prosperity... I think I would rather start negotiations later rather than sooner. (I believe over the next couple years things are going to get vastly better). It will be very difficult for the company to gain any form of cencession when they are making money. A simple "NO" vote will take care of any crappy TA the compnay were to offer...

 

[rajflyboy]

They are already taking concessions through contract erosion. If they decide not to extend the contract it's because they think we are weak and can save compared to the relatively cheap extension. With all the union infighting and the popularity contest we have going on, we are weak. It doesn't help when the majority of the pilots are comfortable and afraid to loose what they have verses being willing to really fight for their contract. Even the possibility of a picket in Omaha made the majority almost pee their own pants. I'm not saying it was a brilliant idea, but the freak out over the possibility showed management how little fight there is right now. I think they would be stupid not to open negotiations after our collective shows if weakness. I only hope the masses will get riled up again when the company just delays a new contract and lowballs for the next 5 or so years. But I am also kind of afraid that a new Post A would pass without enough willpower to push for anything descent or even approaching inflation raises. We really are only worth whatever we can negotiate and I don't think the group has the stones to take on the company anymore. Please prove me wrong. At least I know that Luthi is willing to try to be tough enough.

Amen brother

 

[rajflyboy]

I guess it depends on which who you talk to and who you believe...I don't think management has all that much leverage against the group as of yet. Not enough to get a concessionary contract.

From a negotiating standpoint.... It is always better to negotiate during good economic prosperity... I think I would rather start negotiations later rather than sooner. (I believe over the next couple years things are going to get vastly better). It will be very difficult for the company to gain any form of cencession when they are making money. A simple "NO" vote will take care of any crappy TA the compnay were to offer...

My guess is that for any reason when you negotiate wages a company will suddenly be not making profits.

I'm guessing very typical in negotiating. Any clue?

 

[jetlag7]

They're not exactly playing by the usual " we're losing money so give us concessions" playbook are they....

Not yet. Wait until some time after the BRK shareholders meeting wraps up. I have a feeling the "doom and gloom" machine will spool-up shortly after.

 

[BentOver]

Not yet. Wait until some time after the BRK shareholders meeting wraps up. I have a feeling the "doom and gloom" machine will spool-up shortly after.

Very possible.. My only counter to that theory is that being part of a publically traded company, shareholders will expect Netjets to be a money making operation. (look at any article written about NJA. It's all positive for how the operation is doing since the '09 downturn)

By simply "trying" to show poor profits (doom and gloom) it very well could tick off a lot of shareholders, put WB in a tight spot with them, and also put their own jobs (management) on the hot seat. Not putting it above management, but I think it becomes more of a impression issue when you're dealing with a Berkshire Hathaway entity.

And much like '05, the pilots really do control what could possibly doom the company. The pilots are the front lines, the make or break people in the whole operation. Pilots get pissed, owners leave. It is that simple. Hopefully management has learned that you can't walk all over your bread and butter. ( I don't advocate a "burn it down" mentallity. The job is worth more to everyone now than in '05) I simply hope that management realizes the usual airline tactics don't work in the richy rich fractional world. There won't be Billy Bob and his family to replace owners like at the airlines. In the airlines there's always replacement ticket buyers. Not in our little world of aviation.

In the end I don't see a concessionary contract. I don't see a windfall either. I see some positive changes for the pilots. And maybe a few changes for management, but definitely not concessionary. Anything less than what the pilots have now simply won't pass. And a strike will doom the company. Management and the Union both know that.

 

[AftCG182]

I simply hope that management realizes the usual airline tactics don't work in the richy rich fractional world. There won't be Billy Bob and his family to replace owners like at the airlines. In the airlines there's always replacement ticket buyers. Not in our little world of aviation.

Not trying to hijack your thread; just want to comment on this one point.

There's no shortage of rich folks out there. There might not be a bunch of replacement "Billy Bobs" out there, but there are plenty of "William Roberts" that will do anything to avoid the misery and inefficiency of scheduled airline travel. They'll resort to the various charter cards if Fractional shares won't fit into the budget any more.

We're almost through this economic down-turn. Factor in the looming pilot shortage, and good times are just around the corner for all of is in the Fractional world. :beer:

 

[BentOver]

Not trying to hijack your thread; just want to comment on this one point.

There's no shortage of rich folks out there. There might not be a bunch of replacement "Billy Bobs" out there, but there are plenty of "William Roberts" that will do anything to avoid the misery and inefficiency of scheduled airline travel. They'll resort to the various charter cards if Fractional shares won't fit into the budget any more.

We're almost through this economic down-turn. Factor in the looming pilot shortage, and good times are just around the corner for all of is in the Fractional world. :beer:

:beer: (there's no thumbs up smiley guy)

I wish there were a ton more wealthy people. I think as the CCI improves, employment numbers improve etc.. The wealthy will be "inclined" to flash a little more cash without the guilt or feeling of being in the public eye ala the big 3 car company guys.

I share your optomistic predictions as well. If you look at 2005-beginning of '08... Flying was at an alltime high. Over the next few years it could very well approach those times again. It would be very short sighted to to think corporate aviation will never boom again. It took the deepest recession since the 30's to bring it all down. It will return again. If the recession would only have been half as bad we'd all still be high on the hog...

 

[squonk]

Need and want are two distinctly different things.. You want him... Nobody needs him... No one person is that important...Everyone is replaceable.

Example: Out of the 2500+ active pilots, there are some very very smart individuals. Many who have done this stuff before. Many who have done negotiations for things much more important than a Union contract. There are many others who could handle the task. Whether they want to be part of the goat rope is another story. I'd assume that those same smart people are also smart enough to stay far away.

I'll ask you...as I've asked many.

WHO, out of that 2500+ are you pushing forward? I keep hearing there are many but nobody has actually given us a name. Now I doubt you have a name in mind and even if you do there is no guarantee that person is going to throw their hat in the ring.

Not trying to start a pizz'n contest but the recallers seem to be very myopic on this recall. There is nothing beyond the "get Luthi" mantra that I've seen.

Please set me straight if you and yours have a plan.