King Airelines

[Jim]

However I know that 135 PIC C402 time is better than sitting RIGHT seat in an Otter 121....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! A SLOPPY PILOT?! .....

You KNOW this as a 560 hour pilot? With a WHOOPING 33 hours of multi? Drinking Dave King's koolaid? The same man who tired to convince me that moving from being a Scenic 121 multiturbine DHC-6 PIC to King 135 piston C207 PIC with a quick upgrade to C402 PIC was a LATERAL move? The same guy who thinks maintenance is a waste of money and W&B is for pu$$ies? The same guy who thinks rules were made to be broken?

Most jobs have a multi-engine minimum and/or a turbine PIC minimum. I've never seen an airline job with a multi-piston PIC minimum. Come to think of it, I've seen quite a few with a turbine minimum without the PIC requirement too.

And yes, there are A LOT of sloppy pilots flying at King. For instance, I seem to remeber a King C402 pilot flaming out both engines recently because he forgot to dip his tanks. The flying below the canyon rim and zoom climbing on the Blue 2 at Burnt Canyon is another example. What about knowingly accepting a C402 with C421 brakes installed? Sloopy does not just mean not holding heading or altitude.

Think what you want CAPTAIN, but there has yet to be a former King pilot who regretted moving to Scenic. This includes contributors to this thread....

It's okay to enjoy your job, but putting perfume on a pig doesn't make it smell any better.

 

[Irish Pilot]

I said RIGHT seat, not left seat. Left seat 121 twin turbine no doubt about it, is good time. However I know that 135 PIC C402 time is better than sitting RIGHT seat in an Otter 121, thats for sure...

LOL OMG. Get real man. You walk in to an interview and they ask you what you have learned from your job...lets see....your job is nothing more than multi time building! You fly one route to and from two dinky airports that are only .5 apart everday in severe-clear only weather. What does your flying have to offer? What experience have you gained doing that? I know a few guys at King and a few guys at Scenic that were at King and they are great guys, class acts in fact...but even they would admit that their job now is far more demanding and worthwhile in life and industry.

What was the hardest decision you have made at King? (I honestly want an answer to this.)

Was it looking into a takeoff alternate? Maybe looking at the severity of icing enroute (as you are enroute even)? Was it looking at your duty times and wondering when your next recurrency training is? Was it figuring out what needs to be fixed on your release or manifest?

Im certainly not trying to play high and mighty 121 here...but holy cow was that a rediculous statement. Realistically your job is nothing more than multi-engine time building (which certainly has great value), but dont mistake it for something platinum on your resume. Its simply "getting the ball rolling" if you will.

As even a right seat at a 121 operator (even a small one like Scenic) you have experience in the 121 world which is extremely valuable. Also the job is far more than building time...its building great experience and connections with cool and distinctly driven pilots. I came to Scenic from a flight instruction position and once I started it became very clear that my perception of Scenic as a humble VFR operator was way off base. I am extremely thankful I was hired and made the decision to join the team.

You are severly mislead my friend...but that may be your inexperience talking. Get a clue. Join the real world and when you do come back and post what you have learned.

 

[Irish Pilot]

I said RIGHT seat, not left seat. Left seat 121 twin turbine no doubt about it, is good time. However I know that 135 PIC C402 time is better than sitting RIGHT seat in an Otter 121, thats for sure, the great thing about Scenic is you upgrade in less than a year to the left seat then its great time, disagree with that? Its better than instructing thats all I can say. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! A SLOPPY PILOT?! Its interesting how someone with Ameriflight can go from a BE1900 single pilot 135 straight to Southwest. I don't think they're hire sloppy pilots, but thats just me. Not to mention the fact that X-Jet isn't impressed with your turbine time in a caravan that was 121, maybe thats why they're hiring all these ATP guys who have tons of twin time in a seminole, thats not even 121 or 135.

Two things...I dont think Sean meant every single-pilot outfit. Second, didnt Southwest just hire a Caravan pilot not too many months ago?

Ameriflight (and Airnet and the like) are a different breed...they fly very demanding single pilot situations and are great pilots for it. I sure as hell hope you werent somehow equating yourself to them.

And its funny how you think so low of flight instruction...isnt that what the ATP guys are doing? So do you consider your time at King more valuable than the guys at ATP? After all you are in a mighty 402 and they are only lowly instructors in a Seminole!

 

[FlyWithSean]

Ok Pilotlbs you need to READ the threads you are responding to

You said

I said RIGHT seat, not left seat.

I said

Are you kidding!!! Piston 135 VFR only PIC worth more than Turbine 121 SIC?

Where I come from the Right seat is where the SIC sits. In your case thats the passenger taking video and wondering why the fuel gauges havent moved during the entire flight.

Let me clarify a few things first. When I said single pilot breeds a sloppy pilot I mean the flying you are doing and not Ameriflight, Airnet, and the like. You are VFR with non working equipment in every plane you fly. Those guys actually need to think when they fly. Secondly don't compare a single engine turbine to a 121 Multi Turbine operation.

Also you have worked there for 11+ flights? WOW you are an expert on flying the ditch. Talk to me after at least a year in the ditch. I noticed you gave me no response to the hot day scenarios. Oh thats because you wouldn't know about that because you haven't had the experience yet.

Be proud that you are fying at a 135 instead of flight instructing, because King sure beats flight instructing. For your benefit I am going to start a thread over which is better PIC VFR only 135 or SIC 121 Turbine. I will include a link in my next post.

Pilotlbs also if you want to be safe dont talk nonstop over 120.65 about your position we only need two calls. Let us know when you are at the beach starting your right turn and let us know when you are at the Hacienda starting your left turn. No one wants the frequency jammed up with you trying to figure out how close the plane behind you or next to you is. Dont worry we can see ya coming and we will clear the skies accordingly. Oh yeah you don't have TCAS or GPS or TAWS.

 

[FlyWithSean]

Well the post about which is better is up.

Go check it out

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=588336#post588336

 

[pilotlbs]

Ok, that was my opinion. I'm not saying that Scenic is a bad choice by any means, I would actually prefer to work for them if I could, however I can't because of my current school schedule which luckily King is working with. I enjoy the job I have now much more than instructing, which is my opinion again. Of course its just time building and I know its not very challenging but its one of my second flying jobs, I need the time before I can go anywhere and I need the multi-time because you are right I am inexperienced. I don't claim to know it all and I'm always open to learning, I just started out by giving my opinion to some guys who asked. Also, I am absolutely not equating myself to the pilots at AMF, I have many friends there and I am actually building my time so I can hopefully work there not too far in the future. I'm not trying to cause a problem nor say that anyone's job is lower than mine because I know its not. The ATP guys I give a ton of credit to because thats where I got some of my ratings. However flight instructing wasn't my thing. This is a stepping stone and I know that, I'm just enjoying it while its here instead of talking trash about it, because whats the point, I'd like to be happy and excited about my job as opposed to being miserable. Thats how I feel. You guys are probably right though, its probably is just the inexperience talking, I know I probably shouldn't even be saying anything with my low time and inexperience but I figure one day I'll be there and understand. I also know that I've got a lot of learning to do about the industry and so on, so I should probably just keep quiet till I've been around it a bit longer, lol.

 

[Ill Mitch]

Well the post about which is better is up.

Go check it out

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=588336#post588336

You need to relax about this, dude.
He is having fun and will learn it when he learns it.
At 500+ hours, any flying is valuable time.

 

[MeadPilot]

So far I've read healthy debate. No need to get nasty here, and I only saw one sour (spoiled) grape on the vine. Otherwise, we all step along the stepping stones that our leaders have laid down. All in all, I'm proud to be part of this aviation family. Being a family, there will be bickering and complaining and judging and comparing..... and helping. At 500 hours, there is just no other non-military way for a guy to get some good twin experience, learn his own limitations, and learn from you guys that have "been there, done that". Let's not point out every mistake as a reason for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ation. I know most of you posting here on this board, and each of us has made mistakes... admit it or not, that's just the way it is.

There are paths we follow to our own goals; and many paths share the same real estate. Let's have a good trip, help one another along the way, and always represent our family with style and grace. These people out there, from VGT to 61B, expect a good time and a safe flight.

 

[Flywithmike]

I need a Kleenex......

 

[Jim]

I only saw one sour (spoiled) grape on the vine......and a safe flight.

That would probably be my post you are talking about. I might have directed my frustration at pilotlbs when it should be direct at Dave King and others like him. For that I apologize but not for the sentiments in my post.

I am frustrated and tired of the cheap skate operators like King Airelines that risk safety trying to make a bigger profit. These operators rope in young pilots looking for their first jobs with tales of grandeur, false promises and outright lies. They teach these young pilots that regulations are optional and rules made to be broken. 5 pax seats in the C207? Let's fill them up - who cares if it's over weight. Broken equipment? Screw the MEL, let's fly! Low clouds? Why not scud run below the SFAR required altitudes or over mountainous terrian. After all, if you cancel the flight there is no profit. It seems like every other week I hear a new King story that scares me.

Pilotlbs' comments on the value of left seat C402 time versus right seat 121 trubine hit a raw nerve with me. During my first tenure at Scenic, Dave King actually tried to convince me that quitting my job as a 121 Otter captain at Scenic and working for him as a 135 VFR C207/C402 captain would be "at worst a lateral move but probably career enhancing due to King's strong reputation in the airline industry". He feeds this same BS to King pilots wanting to move on. Come on, King Airelines is a time building job and the bottom rung of the career ladder. Scenic may only be the next step up, but it is a step up. Plus in the Scenic interview, they flat out acknowledge we are nothing but a stepping stone and we expect pilots to leave.

As bad as PFT is, these type of unscrupulous operators are even worse. They lure young impressionable pilots in claiming to be a career fast track and an alternative to instructing. Than they teach these pilots bad habits and compromise safety. They threaten to fire pilots who refuse to fly broken planes, break the regs, etc. They scare them with possible "black marks" on future background checks. All this has happened at King.

Yeah it's building multi-engine time, but is it really worth it?