King Air SIC time

[inthepool]

I've got an oppurtunity to fly right seat in a B100 part 135. The CP of the company says that I can log all of the time as SIC because the company's ops mandate that there be another pilot. He tells me I should log the 135 legs as SIC, and the 91 legs as PIC. Does anyone have an opinion on that? How would a regional look at it in an interview? Thanx in advance.

 

[Slye]

I believe you still have to pass a 135 SIC checkride in order to log SIC even if their op specs require an SIC. If you get trained, I believe you can log SIC on the 135 legs and even PIC on the 135 legs provided you're sole manipulator of the controls. Refer to http://www.propilot.com/doc/legal9.html for more information on this subject. Also, on the 91 legs you'd have to be sole manipulator again in order to log PIC, otherwise you log nothing. A regional is gonna want to make sure that the time is legal and that you're familiar with the operations and systems of the 100. Just out of curiosity, where are you flying out of?

For you other 135 SICs out there, do you log PIC on 135 legs when you're flying or do you just prefer to keep it as SIC? I'm interested to know if airlines usually want to see it as SIC and don't accept the PIC time unless you're the acting PIC.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this stuff...

 

[wil]

I got tagged for a trip today to fly as F.O. I am a Captain and typed in the aircraft. I logged todays legs under SIC. I flew 2 of the legs, but I did not sign for the aircraft. Remember, It won't be the janitor reviewing your logbook but probably an I.P or Chief. Don't fudge, split hairs, et cetera. If I was reviewing your logbook I would look more favorably on the SIC, than the hairsplitting "PIC" time, IMHO. Good luck-

 

[greenpickle]

interesting question

IF you are to log SIC in a aircraft under a part 135 flight you need to have a Part 135 SIC proficiency check. What your CP is referring to is you can log SIC on all 135 legs because most 135 carriers have in their ops spec a requirement to have two pilots on passenger flights when there is no approved autopilot and the flight cannot be operated under VFR conditions.(a little bit more detailed than that though). There is a whole thread that can be written on whether the autopilot has to be broken to log SIC etc..

Here are the pitfalls. If you go ahead and log SIC time for a 135 carrier without ever receiving a PC letter from them AND you get hired by an airline. The part 135 company will not be able to provide any paperwork to support this. (ie. training paperwork, PC forms, background checks, drug tests, etc...) Essentially you will never have existed for this company. IF they did say you were a pilot for them they would be in deep water for not having the ability to show your qualifications. This will raise a big flag to the 121 company.

You can log all the PIC in the world on the part 91 legs. A good way to look at it is to never log SIC unless you have a PIC or SIC letter in that aircraft OR the aircraft requires two pilots and you possess the required certificates to operate that aircraft (ie. multi engine instrument) and the flight is 91.

Finally, be careful flying for companies that "sell" you as a first officer on 135 flights without qualifying you. They make more money for the second pilot and everything will be okay until the dreaded ramp check and their POI gets the report with your name and certificate number were taken from a 135 ramp check.

Oh yeh, one more. Since I have been in the interview process before, IF you claim to be a SIC for a company (even it is legit with paperwork and a documented checkride) make sure you know the aircraft that you are logging time in. This might require you to self study. I know that some ground/flight training and PCs can leave much to be desired. If you get the bif bam thank you mam training and checkride and fly as an enviromental officer you will be lacking in knowledge. If you have 135 time in your book as a qualified 135 SIC, that means to a a prospective 121 interviewer that you have had structored ground school and flight training in this aircraft. They will expect you to know a decent amount of 135 rules and that particular aircraft's systems. The worst thing in the world is to walk into an interview with "250 hours" of SIC Navajo time and say the gear is electric, especially if your interviewer flew 3000 hours in a Navajo back in the good ole' days.

Hope this helps. Fly safe
gp

 

[inthepool]

Thanx for the insight guys, here are some more details: It's a King Air 100, with an autopilot, however, the company ops specs state that if the PIC deems necessary, an SIC must be on board, which makes the SIC required. I will get an SIC checkride, and be officially on the books with them. It's an air medical outfit if you're curious. Any further insight would be great! Thanx!

 

[greenpickle]

Inthepool-

I would be suprised if the ops specs actaully said that. Op specs are genreic in nature and are only specific with mangament names, aircraft specific stuff, etc. (for the most part) Everyone has the exact same wording for the most part. I wish I could be very specific but has been awhile but I do remember is that there is an exemption ( a very common one) for that operator to use an approved autopilot instead of a second crewmember. If they do not have this exemption then you are good to go. The B100 is single pilot approved so this exemption could be applied if they wanted to. If you have a letter, which it sounds like you do, no worries at all. If you have a letter, your CP is giving good advice. A regional will totally accept this time, just remember to know your stuff for that aircraft. Sounds like a good gig, I guess my previous comments and concerns were based on working for operators that said the only rule is that we have no rules. (Not that there is anything wrong with that. - Jerry Seinfeld)
gp

 

[mike1mc]

Cover your a**! make sure you get a copy of the 8410 (checkride paperwork) for your records. Also make sure you recieve indoc on company procedures, authorizations, etc. and know FAR 135 in case you do get ramped. Just to clarify, the authorization you are talking about is actually 135.105 and really it states that you can use the autopilot instead of the SIC. An SIC is required on any passenger-carrying, IFR 135 flight. This FAR just gives the option. Best of luck. There are MANY long threads here about logging SIC and these topics. Do a search and you'll find a lot of different (but good) arguments.

 

[climbhappy]

I agree with GREENPICKLE, ops specs , and I've seen many copies have never left anything up to the discretion of a pilot. under IFR, you either have a second in command or you don't.
Now, The FSDOs of the USA are not all under the same hymnal. guido in detroit may do something in left field, while frank in charlotte would say heck no. I qualify my remarks with it sounds very strange, probably isn't accurate and very odd.

The DO usually signs the ops specs.

on another point, i have been on 9 or 10 airline interviews and i've have never seen a interviewer nitpick my logbook to the extent they questioned an entry and its validity!

 

[greenpickle]

climbhappy is correct

The validity of the time comes in the form of questions on the equipment, not paperwork.
gp

 

[YaMama]

Would it make any difference in a B200? (Not sure if the 200 requires 2 pilots)

What if you didn't log PIC or SIC, but did log total time, multiengine, dual received, etc. (assuming the Captain is a CFI).

 

[OldManPilot]

I flew in the same situation in King Air's.

You may log SIC under the following conditions:

1. You have recieved a SIC proficiency Check in the Make & Model to be flown.

2. The Ops spec's specify that that a/c must have 2 pilots, or the PIC does not have a sign-off for use of the autopilot.

The aircraft can be operated single pilot and requires no co-pilot if authorization has been recieved during the PIC PC checkride. So, if your PIC has the signoff and your OPS SPEC does not specify that it is REQUIRED to have 2 pilots you cannot log the time as SIC even if you have passed a SIC checkride.

 

[FalconPilot69]

OldManPilot is Correct

I currently fly air ambulance, Part 135 in a B200. I am PIC qualified but due to my not being a PIC with the company, I can only log SIC on the 135 legs and PIC on the 91 legs. Now, as far as the airlines go, read Part 1, the description of PIC. Like others have said, the splitting of the times will not amount to a hill of beans due to you not being the one who is wholly responsible for the flight. I log SIC on the 135 legs due to the company not allowing FO's to fly the 135 leg. Also, I could be wrong here, but I believe the 2 pilot requirement is in the OPS Manual and not the ops specs unless the PIC's are not qualified under I believe 135.105 (?) which is autopilot in lieu of SIC. One other requirement for 2 pilots could be either contractual, with the hospital, or insurance requirements.

I hope this helps.

 

[greenpickle]

yep, here is the grey area

Everyone will give you an opinion on whether you can log SIC in a single pilot certified aircraft. The others (oldmanpilot) are correct in saying that the aircraft AND pilot need to be single pilot qualified. When this was an issue for me I had one POI say that even if the customer, insurance, aircraft owner, or the PIC requests or insists on an SIC on board, you cannot log SIC if the pilot and aircraft are dispatchable single pilot. (ie. autopilot signoff for PIC and the autopilot is Ops Specs approved and working). My next POI said that if I didnt use the autopilot, even if it was working, you could log the time SIC.
I guess you can get many interpretations of this. I would log it personally. These interpretations get wild. At the current 121 airline Im at the POI says that an SIC can log PIC as long as he is the sole manipultor of the controls. Go figure.
Oh yeh, for the person who wants to know the 200 is single pilot cert and the autopilot system is approvable on Ops Specs.

GP

 

[350DRIVER]

Would it make any difference in a B200? (Not sure if the 200 requires 2 pilots

NO .. It is type-certificated for single pilot operations, plain and simple.

Thanx for the insight guys, here are some more details: It's a King Air 100, with an autopilot, however, the company ops specs state that if the PIC deems necessary, an SIC must be on board, which makes the SIC required. I will get an SIC checkride, and be officially on the books with them. It's an air medical outfit if you're curious. Any further insight would be great! Thanx!

I tend to think someone is feeding you a line when it comes to the specific ops specs that you are relating this to. Even with the SIC training, ground school, flight check, drug test, etc, etc, it will not mean jack sh!t if the ops specs does not state that a SIC IS required to be onboard the aircraft. I have many doubts since you have stated that the plane does have an "autopilot" and I assume it is for the aircraft to be flown "single pilot". I would be a little surprised if this autopilot was not approved for single pilot operations. I must also say that this scenario sounds more like a "insurance" issue wanting to have "2 pilots" onboard versus just one. Keep in mind that the insurance reqt's cannot over ride the ops specs or applicable far's. It is very clear and simple, IF the ops specs require a SIC to be onboard the aircraft and it is clearly stated in the appropriate section then yes you may log the time as SIC. This whole "however, the company ops specs state that if the PIC deems necessary" stuff I do not believe is going to cut it since right there I am seeing that a SIC is NOT required to be onboard and that also clearly states that the PIC is checked out for single pilot operations regardless of whether or not you are onboard the aircraft. Logging of SIC time is going to be solely based on the company ops specs, too many newbies seem to think since the insurance company requires them to be onboard, they are "sic qualified" then they may log the time as sic, that is completely false and incorrect.


Keep in mind that just because this specific company plans on training you and making you a "qualified" sic that in itself does not make it legal for you to log this time as sic. Once again, the ops specs must stipulate that a sic is required to be onboard the aircraft and not put this on the shoulders of the captain to make this determination since in that case the captain would be single pilot qualified and there would be absolutely no need for the sic to be onboard other than to make it a added safety factor. Sounds like you may only be able to log the empty 91 legs..


3 5 0

 

[OldManPilot]

To make it very very simple.

If the aircraft can be dispatched single-pilot, then you CANNOT log the time.

You may fly along but technically you cannot log the time. If SIC qualified, you can talk on the radio and drop the flaps and gear, but unless the OPS SPEC specifically requires 2 pilots I'm afraid your sunk. If you have not recieved an SIC PC check you can ride along but not touch anything, just observe.

I personally know of a 135 company that got into trouble because the customer would request 2 pilots for their King Air, and so they would get a flight Instructor to ride along in the right seat. The FAA didn't like that idea and a fine was issued.

 

[upndsky]

A friend of mine recently interviewed at a regional. One of the pilots in his group had around 700ME, half as a copilot in a B-1900 used as a corporate shuttle. From what she told him, they gave her a hard time about the SIC time she'd logged and told her she couldn't count any of it towards her time. I thought the 1900 was a two-pilot plane but maybe they have a single pilot exemption if it's flown under Part 91. She was obviously upset about this. Don't know if she was hired or not.

If you later go to an interview, you better know that King Air inside and out. Ask your employer to send you to FlightSafety or SimCom. That way you can show an airline you were trained and flew as a crewmember, not someone who just sits there and talks on the radio.

 

[350DRIVER]

A friend of mine recently interviewed at a regional. One of the pilots in his group had around 700ME, half as a copilot in a B-1900 used as a corporate shuttle. From what she told him, they gave her a hard time about the SIC time she'd logged and told her she couldn't count any of it towards her time. I thought the 1900 was a two-pilot plane but maybe they have a single pilot exemption if it's flown under Part 91. She was obviously upset about this. Don't know if she was hired or not.

The 1900 is pretty much a single pilot airplane for most purposes, not very different from a King Air 350. He!!, at one point in time not too long ago the 350 & 1900 type were the same. The 1900 can be flown single pilot if the captain has the appropriate type rating. In Phoenix the other day enroute back east I saw a "shuttle" guy 91 flying it single pilot. Some of the Great Lakes pilots (mostly management pilots) have the appropriate type to fly the "super-sized" 350 <1900> single pilot. Main reason for this is for MX and ferry flights. CommuttyAir also has some that have the same single pilot types.

If you later go to an interview, you better know that King Air inside and out. Ask your employer to send you to FlightSafety or SimCom. That way you can show an airline you were trained and flew as a crewmember, not someone who just sits there and talks on the radio.

I would highly doubt that this non-required sic is going to be going to any FSI or SimCom anytime soon for B100 training, I think he!! woulf have a better chance of freezing over first.

the company ops specs state that if the PIC deems necessary, an SIC must be on board,

That right there should have pointed the above out !!


3 5 0

 

[trfenwyd]

my .02$

here's my take and sombody please correct me if this sounds insane.

if you have pc check as sic in a king air 200, this allows you to fly (manipulate the controls) on 135 legs. PIC. If you don't touch anything (radio operator) then don't log it as sic, but log the entire trip as total time. Any flaws with that?

blue skies

 

[Crizz]

Someone correct me...

If on the empty 91 legs, you dont even need to be sole manipulator assumed that you or the other guy are both MEIs.

Is this correct?

 

[mike1mc]

I know this issue has been beat to death, and maybe a search of previous threads will help clarify the issue. One thing needs to be made clear...

For IFR, passenger-carrying operations under Part 135 an SIC is required for flight. Your company's Operations Specifications A015 and FAR 135.105 allow for use of an approved autopilot IN LIEU of an SIC.

Although many discussions and arguements can be made whether this time is "valuable" or "loggable", I beleive it is as long as the SIC is acting as a crewmember and not just a seat warmer. This means attending training, the ability to fly the aircraft as PIC if needed, and completion of all applicable checkrides.
From what I understand, FSDOs are cracking down on those seat warmers as mentioned above. The thinking is that operators are taking low timers and throwing them in the right seat to operate radios. Passengers are at ease thinking that two "qualified" pilots are up front. This person is NOT a true SIC, as they would be useless in an emergency. Log the SIC time if you meet all the requirements and do more than just talk on the radio.

With that being said, the opposition begins below....

 

[flx757]

it is very cut and dried, If the aircraft is certtified for 2 pilots or is operated under a part (i.e. 135 or ops specs that require a SIC in lieu of an autopilot, and you have received the required training specified in CFR 14 Part 61.55, thenyou may log SIC time.

Tje keys are an SIC is required if the flight is operated under a Part of the CFR of the Ops Spes of the company (insurance requirements, etc. don't count), and you have recieved the required training specified in 61.55, then you may log SIC time. Otherswise, if you do, be prepared to explain how and why you were think you were legal to do so.

 

[charlie1]

Listen junior pilots (less than 2000 hrs). don't try to beat the system by fudging your hours. sic, pic, widebody (Challenger)-NOT, heavy iron (Gulfstream)-NOT, those terms are used by professionals that actually fly those type of planes in the legal capacity of sic or pic. while i'm on the subject let me clarify a few things for those who pound their chests about the aircraft you fly! widebody aircraft: 767 being the smallets "widebody", DC-10, L-1011, 777, 747's. are you getting it now. Heavy iron: anything over 255,000 lbs as per the AIM, 757, DC-8, 767, 777, and the famous 747. a king air does not require sic. to log sic you don't have to be sole manipulator of the controls. if you are the designated sic for that flight on your dispatch release you can log all the time as sic including total time, multiengine time, even if you don't touch the controls on that flight. read up on your FAR's. and put your time in just like everyone else. by attempting to cheat your way into the cockpit by logging "sic" time you are only making it difficult for the captain that has to baby sit you when and if you fall through the cracks of the selection process. by the way, there is no difference between a 402C and a 402B model aircraft. to the real airline professionals it's the same freakin' aircraft!!! wing tip tanks or no wing tip tanks, come on get real. airline interview panels want to know if you a professional...and by trying to fudge the numbers your looking like a fool.

 

[trfenwyd]

charlie1,

for those of us "low timers" these are legit questions. I have my do and cp telling me how to log it and it doesn't seem right. if you wanna bitch and complain, save it for those kind of threads. I'm sure you could find something good look under "MESA"

As for everything else, we all start somewhere. I'm sure you didn't come out of the womb with 6500 hours.

 

[flx757]

trfenwyd,

Keep in mind there are "junior" pilots with 6500 hours. It's all relative, and the pilot who thinks he knows everything, has ceased to continue to learn, and has finally reached the ranks of "real airline professional", is the pilot I least want to fly with,

61.55 is pretty clear on what training is required for SIC, and an SIC is only required if the aircraft is type certificated for more than one pilot or the flight is operated under a regulation requiring more than one pilot.

 

[texanpilot]

Definetly cant log SIC. However, does the PIC have a Multi-CFI? If so, log it as dual received. I have 46 hours KingAir dual received. It will increase your multi, multi-turbine, and total. But if you log KingAir SIC, an interviewer will give you a very wierd look someday.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Definetly cant log SIC. However, does the PIC have a Multi-CFI? If so, log it as dual received. I have 46 hours KingAir dual received. It will increase your multi, multi-turbine, and total. But if you log KingAir SIC, an interviewer will give you a very wierd look someday.

Texan,

I was a bit skeptical of this practice. Has the issue ever been brought up in your interviews? Thanks.


Mr. I.

 

[flx757]

Definetly cant log SIC. However, does the PIC have a Multi-CFI? If so, log it as dual received. I have 46 hours KingAir dual received. It will increase your multi, multi-turbine, and total. But if you log KingAir SIC, an interviewer will give you a very wierd look someday.

There are plenty of instances when the flight is operated under a regulation that requires an SIC, such as when an SIC is required in lieu of an auopilot, or the company ops specs require an SIC and he/she has received the required traininig under 61.55. Then is is perfectly legal to log it as SIC time.

I suggest you read up on your regs before making a blanket statement that you "definitely can't log it as SIC".