King Air 350 Type rating

[JakeSnake]

So, my employer has approached me about getting me a KingAir 350 type rating. The way they want to do it is first, get a Part 91 type rating with training/checkride from a gentleman who will "come to us" for ground training and flight training/checking in the actual airplane--then give me the "part 91" type. Then, what they want to do is send me immediately to Simuflite/FlightSafety for a KingAir 350 RECURRENT at which time I would complete the "Part 135" training. Anybody out there with a similar request from their employer? Anybody out there with types gained under this training scenario? I understand it would save money for the company, but "what's in it for me?" It seems to me to be a bit of an unusual way to go about flight training for a "real" airplane.

 

[mavrck]

ya definitely a bit backwards to the whole approach. Think they are looking at the bottom line of cost. An initial course would cost x amount from the acredited school. The recurrent would cost Y.


Which course will you get better knowledge from? The initial ,basicly cuz its longer and they have more time to feed it to you. The recurrent is just a course on the basics becuz they feel you already know the airplane and been flying it for a certain time.

 

[JakeSnake]

I think you are absolutely right...it is a bit screwy.....they are trying to save each and every possible penny...Don't quite know what I'll do. Thanks.

 

[Kingairrick]

It's bull$hit. But, if you have lots of King Air experience, you'll be OK. It's not a hard airplane to learn. Your profile doesn't list ac types. The 350 is not an airplane to just jump into and fly. There was an accident a couple of years ago in MS i think where a 200 guy decided to ferry a 300 (same type) for a friend and got himself killed because of the differences.

I wonder how your insurance company would feel about this scheme? Maybe they should get an anonymous tip?

 

[PSL]

I don't understand the logic in the plan, if there is any.

By the time you pay the DPE for his/her fee for the training and the rating + the expense of having the DPE come to you + the cost of the airplane (fixed and variable) ... is this really going to be less than a full FAR-135 Course at one of the sim-based schools?

As far as the airplane being different from a BE-200, I'm not sure what previous poster is referring to other than the electrical system being the obvious one. Some years ago, the BE-300 was a combined rating with the BE-1900. It was split for some unknown reason because the BE-1900 and the BE-300 are more similar than the B-757 and B-767 or the MD-10 and DC-10 which are still common ratings (I think ?)

Is the DPE from Texas by any chance ?

 

[aroundtheblock]

Not to steal their motto, but... the best safety equipment you can put in the plane is a well trtained pilot. The airplane costs just under 2 million. What's 13K in comparison. Sounds to me the owner is getting off to the wrong start here and setting a bad precident. As for what's in it for you... 2 checkrides instead of 1.

 

[JakeSnake]

... 2 checkrides instead of 1.

That is 1 of my biggest problems with this scenario--I'm put in jeopardy twice!! Yippee!! Also--the DPE has absolutely no accountability, i.e. if something is going wrong in the training or checking, who do I appeal to? Who knows what standards or syllabus this guy will be teaching and checking? Will I be set up for failure when I go to recurrent at a "real" school, where by definition, recurrent is set up for people who have been flying the airplane for some length of time as a refresher, not initial training. Do I need to list the obvious advantages of sim vs. aircraft training--ability in the sim to freeze and talk about different flight scenarios? Can't preposition in the actual airplane! How about if when the airplane I'm training in gets chartered for 3 days...what happens to my training, do I just stop? What if it charters for all day, and doesn't get back till late at night--will I have the pleasure of training in the middle of the night? Or maybe I'll just get up at 3 a.m. to do my "training" before the airplane goes on a revenue trip. I KNOW my company will not take the airplane off line for my training--and if it did, that would erase ANY cost advantage to this, if there is any in the first place. Will I be expected to fly trips on my current aircraft before/after my 350 training?

The more I think about this, I think this "deal" may be as much about having me at my base airport to be available to fly my current airplane before/during/after my 350 "training", as it is about cost--I had the same question as PSL--how much can this possibly save even under the absolutely best case scenario? Real training at a real school just isn't that expensive when compared to the value of the airplane, and the revenue I will generate flying the airplane. Training is a cost of doing business--PSL also makes a good point about setting precedent...I work for a fairly sizable company--there are pilots behind me right now who will be asked to do the same thing if I go through with this.

I know what my position is and what my answer will be to this proposition. I just want to see if my position is unreasonable.

 

[HMR]

Good Grief! Why do some charter operators go to such lengths to save a buck. It's a multi-million dollar airplane used to fly multi-millionaires and thay want to save a few hundred bucks on training? Just go to SimCom, get your type and take ONE ride with the Feds. SimCom's cheaper and better IMHO than FSI (I don't know anything about Simuflight).

 

[Sphrynxlla]

i did exactly that for my type 91 then 135

 

[Whirlwind]

A slightly off-topic question...

What would be the cheapest way to get a 350 type if you already had time in the airplane flying right seat, but didn't have access to the airplane itself for the checkride?

 

[Sphrynxlla]

I dont know that there is any way around doing a normal type course if you don't have access to the plane.

 

[JakeSnake]

Sphrynxlla...plz elaborate on what your experience was like getting your 350 type in this manner....good/bad/indifferent, any problems, would you recommend it? Would you do it again? Was training expedited--i.e. did it take less time than attending the full course? Do you know if it was cheaper? How was the DPE? Were you prepared adequately to attend the 350 recurrent right away? Do you work for a large/small company, etc.....Thanks

 

[350DRIVER]

Is this dpe Mr. Bob Markuete(sp?) from Indiana by any chance who will come in to do your type and training?

He is check airman for 13 or so different 135 operators and used my former company's 350 to get "qualified" on to be able to do the 300/350 type rides.

If he is coming in then the ride will be a piece of cake.

I did my first 135 captain ride with him and it wasn't overly difficult at all.

it all comes down to "cost" and he and his company is "cheap" compared to your FSI's out there.

3 5 0

 

[Jetnw]

there are also other items to consider because of the way they are doing this, I did an in A/C type on the 300 years ago, most of the reason was cost, it was a managed A/C so alot of the training cost was absorbed with mangmt costs, so it was actually cheaper to do it with a DE in the plane than school. Is there not someone available to give you a 135 check at the same time? not sure what the situation is there, but with most companies it will be the bottom line ahead of pilot competence, sadly enough,,,not saying you are not compentent, but just the order of things. Other than that the 300 was a fantastic T-Prop and I felt lucky to fly it, those fancy winglets on the 350 up the cool factor...enjoy!!


Crewdiscounts available here
www.jetsethealth.com/creworder1.htm

 

[English]

Lots of shoe-string budget operators do this.

 

[Spot]

Most of the pt 142 sim schools have FAA approved prerequisites for their classes. Better check into those to see if you meet them. I heard for the pt 135 PIC upgrade class (Experienced Transition or whatever you want to call it) that in addition to the type you have to have some minimum experience (like 200 hrs right seat, not sure if these apply for King Airs). A guy told me that these are their most failed classes which is why the FAA required the pre-requisites. Just a heads up. Good Luck.

 

[phil]

Lots of part 135 operators do it this way, it is done all the time-these kinds of ops are a world apart from the way privileged fracs or the airlines operate, and it is normal, the way business is done.

If you say something to your employer, and he doesn't see it your way, then how about getting yourself a manual and taking personal responsibility for studying on your own in addition to any training you might receive? There are many pilots that do that anyway, no matter what kind of sponsored training they receive.

Be thankful for the upgrade opportunity, maybe you could ask for more time to prepare instead.

 

[FlierDude]

Push for the full school!

Put together some salient points (owner's aircraft not exposed to training risks, your ability to concentrate on your primary function - safety, excellence of audio-visual aids and learning on a state-of-the-art sim at FSI/Simcom/Simuflite, etc.). You know this employer, catch him at a good time and make it clear you feel he'd best be served by a professional trained by professionals.
The alternative school he's considering is the worst of both worlds - strained training (wx, pop-up trips amid training), poor AV aids, not as cost-efficient as it would seem.
Sorry, phil, but just because "lots of Part 135 operators do it this way" doesn't mean it's the best way to go. Just the cheapest - and at the pilot's expense.
I know 135 operators that maintain training contracts at FSI (I worked at one), with multi-pilot discounts it's not as costly as one would think.
The professional training would set a good precedent. Join the NBAA, also.

 

[100LL... Again!]

How can he do both the training and the checkride?

I do not think you can sign the 8710 as the instructor then turn around and administer the ride?

Does that seem unusual to anyone?

 

[F16fixer]

Simuflite wants around $17,000 for the initial 12 day course on the type. I suppose thats why they are trying to avoid them. I guess I would prefer to have a fully trained pilot in my front seat. That price isn't too much for someones life is it? All these corp guys are a bunch of cheap A holes.