Key lime air

[tathepilot]

11-18-2003
11-01-2003
09-24-2001 2 fatal
06-05-2000 2 fatal

found this after only 1 search on the NTSB website.

looks like a very professional outfit with safety as their highest priority.

Hey, 7b2 what is your beef with Key lime ? Your participation in this thread has been quite useless. Normally when there is a problem with anything in life we try to get to the root of it.
All you spew is 'they suck', you will die. Yes they have had accidents but you highlight that only. I'm 'still' trying to find out the root.

 

[skyking1976]

Another one...

http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X21198&ntsbno=DEN00FA102&akey=1

This (SIC) was a personal friend of mine too.

SK

 

[7B2]

Tathepilot,

Now I’m curious; what’s your obsession with Key Lime Air? You worry me; because honestly, why else do you want to work for an outfit that must have about the worst reputation in the industry!!

Don’t get me wrong, every operation might get involved with an incident or accident at some point in time, but a few fatal accidents and a few incidents (reported ones they were unable to “hide”) doesn’t tell me much good about the company.

My beef with Key Lime is nothing more than the fact that operations like that give the industry a bad name and make insurance go up.
On top of that they finance their operation with their SIC program; probably because they wouldn’t otherwise be able to stay in business.

I am disgusted with companies like that!!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

7B2,

Check your PM

Regards,
FD

 

[DrRaptor]

I stand corrected. The only reason I didn't find any of the fatals in my original is because I was looking for the specific string - "Key Lime Air" under Part 135, and for some reason it had never come up with any fatal accidents.

I also wish those of you posting these accidents would look at *WHY* these planes wrecked.

The two fatal accidents listed both occured not because of company policies being deficient or because of mechanical failure. In the first case, the crew broke the rules and "hot dogged" down a canyon to look at the scenery while they were supposed to be flying a revenue run. The second occured when the Flight Instructor allowed an approach-to-stall maneuver to proceed into a spin. Whether he just wasn't paying enough attention or it happened too quick isn't the point. The fact still remains that it was a maneuver that was approved by the FAA. I will note that the maneuver has been removed from the Flights, Inc. training procedures for commercial and multi-engine pilots, so my guess would be that the maneuver has also been removed from the Key Lime Air training sylibus.

I also have to say this as well - I don't understand why people make accusations about companies like - "They have the worst reputation in the industry." If they do, then they won't be getting business, and certainly not MAJOR contracts from some of the largest and most respected companies in the industry. If Key Lime was really as bad as some make it out to be, then why is it that they CONTINUE to expand their operations with UPS? If they were such a bad company, then they'd be out on their butts without a contract, much as Superior Aviation found itself after it had a Metro gear-up at Denver in 2003.

I will give this piece of advice as a person who's been around aviation most of his life, and has learned a LOT from people who started their flying careers during or just before WWII - the measure of a company is the confidence its customers have in it. If a company is good, then it's customers will continue to use it. If it's not good, then they'll stop using it. It's almost MORE true in aviation because there is such an abundance of choices when it comes to competitors for feeder contracts.

 

[7B2]

1 more time!!

11-18-2003 incident
11-01-2003 incident
09-24-2001 2 fatal
06-05-2000 2 fatal

Maybe I need a refresher in trend monitoring, but these facts don't lie.
It directly tells me about the general attitude that must be present.

"If Key Lime was really as bad as some make it out to be, then why is it that they CONTINUE to expand their operations with UPS?"

Because they underbid everyone else, duh.
UPS doesn't give a ratsa$$, because their name is not on the plane.

I'm not going to claim I know aviation inside out, but I do know that they have a "slightly" higher incident & accident rate compared to other operators.

As I said before; I truely believe they are not able to operate without the SIC program financing their operation.

Last but not least a cut and paste from their website which is truely hilarious.
"[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Our commitment to achieving the highest industry standards has earned us the reputation as one of the safest, most respectable companies in the business."

What business?
[/font]

 

[skyking1976]

I stand corrected. The only reason I didn't find any of the fatals in my original is because I was looking for the specific string - "Key Lime Air" under Part 135, and for some reason it had never come up with any fatal accidents.

I also wish those of you posting these accidents would look at *WHY* these planes wrecked.

The two fatal accidents listed both occured not because of company policies being deficient or because of mechanical failure. In the first case, the crew broke the rules and "hot dogged" down a canyon to look at the scenery while they were supposed to be flying a revenue run. The second occured when the Flight Instructor allowed an approach-to-stall maneuver to proceed into a spin. Whether he just wasn't paying enough attention or it happened too quick isn't the point. The fact still remains that it was a maneuver that was approved by the FAA. I will note that the maneuver has been removed from the Flights, Inc. training procedures for commercial and multi-engine pilots, so my guess would be that the maneuver has also been removed from the Key Lime Air training sylibus. [SP]

I also have to say this as well - I don't understand why people make accusations about companies like - "They have the worst reputation in the industry." If they do, then they won't be getting business, and certainly not MAJOR contracts from some of the largest and most respected companies in the industry. If Key Lime was really as bad as some make it out to be, then why is it that they CONTINUE to expand their operations with UPS? If they were such a bad company, then they'd be out on their butts without a contract, much as Superior Aviation found itself after it had a Metro gear-up at Denver in 2003.

I will give this piece of advice as a person who's been around aviation most of his life, and has learned a LOT from people who started their flying careers during or just before WWII - the measure of a company is the confidence its customers have in it. If a company is good, then it's customers will continue to use it. If it's not good, then they'll stop using it. It's almost MORE true in aviation because there is such an abundance of choices when it comes to competitors for feeder contracts.

In your 160 hours of glory, and by the comments you posted, I can say you don't know jack...

The whole reason for the second accident wasn't an approach to stall maneuver. Key Lime used to teach full stalls in their airplanes despite what their Part 135 training manual says. I know several people that can corroborate that. Whether or not it exists in the Part 141 training syllabus is irrelevant. Key Lime Air and Flights Inc. are separate entities. Yes, the same guy owns both, but they are operated under two different sets of rules and two different FAR's govern training curriculum.

As to the abundance of choices in feeder service for UPS, the contracts go to the lowest bidder. Key Lime has such a large volume of aircraft and pays their pilots so poorly they can afford to under-cut the competition. Superior's gear up landing had nothing to do with it. If accidents were criteria for dismissal as a UPS feeder, Key Lime would have been finished late last year.

Noone makes comments like these as an arbitrary statement. Trust me when I say that these folks (including myself) have done their research. Maybe you should do some more...

SK

 

[DrRaptor]

The whole reason for the second accident wasn't an approach to stall maneuver. Key Lime used to teach full stalls in their airplanes despite what their Part 135 training manual says. I know several people that can corroborate that. Whether or not it exists in the Part 141 training syllabus is irrelevant. Key Lime Air and Flights Inc. are separate entities. Yes, the same guy owns both, but they are operated under two different sets of rules and two different FAR's govern training curriculum.

The fact still remains that the approach-to-stall maneuver was in the cirriculum of both Key Lime Air and (then) Key Lime Flights. After that accident, the maneuver dissapeared altogether. There are no more banked approaches to stall taught at Flights, Inc. or Key Lime Air. That is a FACT, not governed by FARs or anything. The choice was made after the accident to remove the maneuver from BOTH training manuals. As for them teaching full stalls in spite of the training manual, once again, this is the failure of the Instructor Pilot, not the company as a whole. If he was not following the manual and he did not report to the Chief Pilot or those responsible with the FAA that they were doing non-approved maneuvers, then that's the fault of the pilots is it not?

As to the abundance of choices in feeder service for UPS, the contracts go to the lowest bidder. Key Lime has such a large volume of aircraft and pays their pilots so poorly they can afford to under-cut the competition. Superior's gear up landing had nothing to do with it. If accidents were criteria for dismissal as a UPS feeder, Key Lime would have been finished late last year.

And how do you know that for sure? Knowing the persons in Denver responsible for overseeing the Feeder Operations from the UPS side of things, I'd have to disagree because Superior not only had MORE aircraft available, but they were underbidding Key Lime by a fair margin. The only other problem that was routine is that Superior refused to pay their fuel bill on more than one occasion, which resulted in us (ASIG) refusing to fuel their aircraft a couple of times. Key Lime, however, always paid the bill in a timely manner.

Noone makes comments like these as an arbitrary statement. Trust me when I say that these folks (including myself) have done their research. Maybe you should do some more...

I've done plenty of research. I think that knowing a good chunk of their crews, flying with Flights, Inc (which has more than one Key Lime Air pilot there as an instructor), being around down there for 2 YEARS fueling their aircraft on a nearly daily basis and dealing with their operations on a daily basis, I think I'd have some first hand experience on what kind of company they are.

Also, I'd remind you AGAIN, that the two ACCIDENTS were due to pilots disregarding the manuals. Now, you can interpret that any way you want, but from an FAA point-of-view (considering that 2 fatal accidents in one year would result in a review of their Certification) the highest person that's making the company unsafe is the Chief Pilot if he's not making sure that the Instructor Pilots under him are not training by the manual, because that's HIS responsibility.

BTW, there are more than 2 additonal incidents on the NTSB database. There was the 2 Metros hitting each other in December 2003, one had a nose gear collapse at Grand Junction in Novermber 2003, and a fourth aircraft (N787KL) ran off the runway in Montana on a snow and ice covered runway when both right main landing gear tires blew out on landing. I have pictures of the two that collided at DEN up on Jetphotos.net. I also have pictures of the Superior bird on Jetphotos.net. Just look up Metroliner and Denver, and you'll find them.

 

[7B2]

12-03-2003 incident with 2 of their planes
11-18-2003 incident
11-01-2003 incident
09-24-2001 2 fatal
06-05-2000 2 fatal

Thanks for that dec 2003 incident (forgot about that)

Now, anyone trying to tell me this is not a little "excessive" should get his head examined.

My computer doesn't crash as often; some of you guys make me feel that Bill Gates is doing a good job.

 

[skyking1976]

I can't believe I'm debating a frickin' fueler...

I'm sure you're going to PFT in their SIC program too, aren't you? Your "I-know-this-and-I-know-that" attitude just plain sucks. I've been flying in Colorado for the past 8 years and knew these Key Lime folks way before they got as large as they are now. That's how I know what I do. I think you would be a great fit for Key Lime because you display some of the rancid arrogance that their management exhibits. Have fun, kid. Be sure to do your clearing turns before you try to stall the Navajo... enough already! And don't forget the bug job.