Keep your speed up.

[MJG]

Anybody remember the big stink they made about those fighter jets that were flying in formation, out of Maryland I believe? They got scattered because of visibility problems and wound up busting some airspace around the White House and the TCA's around D.C. Happened a few years ago.

IF I'm not mistaken I do remember that and those "fighter jets" were none other than the United States Air Force Demonstration Team a.ka. The Thunderbirds.

Nice to know even the best screw the pooch every now and then.

A little tidbit about the IAH 250 kt. waiver. After a couple years of this practice when it first began, several crews were investigated or maybe even violated because due to their high forward speed and slow vertical speed, they accidentally punched out through the side of the, what was then TCA, doing well in excess of 200 knots. Ooops !!

 

[jarhead]

Not sure if this has been covered or not on this thread. Some years ago, while a spectator at the air show in Oshkosh, WI, The public address announcement told us all to gaze "eyes left", for a high speed pass by a military fighter jet. My recollection was that an F-14, with wings fully folded back, came over the runway at about 100 feet AGL, at a speed of over 400 knots, per the P/A announcement. It was very cool, with a vapor like effect over and aft of the wings.....surreal! Would that have been a violation of of the under 10,000' speed limit?

 

[fokkerjet]

FAR 91.117

Part 91 is pretty clear on aircraft speed limits. I paraphrase the regulation, but here's what it's saying:

a) .....unless authorized by the Administrator, no speed greater than 250 kts below 10,000'. (The Administrator is the FAA, it's not ATC.)

b) ....ATC may authorize speeds greater than 200 kts below 2500' and 4 miles of a primary airport of class C or D airspace. Does not apply to class B airspace. (ATC is allowed to authorize this by the Administrator, and only within that limitation.)

c) ...200 kts below Class B.

d) ...If minimum speed for aircraft exceeds maximum speed for airspace, the aircraft may operate at minimum speed.

Airshows require waivers for aerobatics, and you get waivers from the Administrator (the local FSDO), not ATC.

 

[hmmm]

Re: FAR 91.117

Part 91 is pretty clear on aircraft speed limits. I paraphrase the regulation, but here's what it's saying:

a) .....unless authorized by the Administrator, no speed greater than 250 kts below 10,000'. (The Administrator is the FAA, it's not ATC.)

.

(The Administrator is the FAA, it's not ATC.)

to quote Dieterly ... Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned

So ATC has been delegated the authority of the Administrator.


Are you trying to say that every time ATC authorizes me to do a 300 foot per minute climb cause the pig CRJ is not making it to assigned altitude at 500 fpm I am in violation.

And every time I ask for a high speed descent below 10000 of 300 kts and ATC approves because I am trying to help my pax make their connection I am in violation.

No I am not in violation. I recieved a waiver from the rule by the ATC the delegated administrator of the regs.

Just ask them next time you fly or just call your local Tracon. Forget about asking a FAA inspector at the local FSDO unless you know hes an old timer who really knows his regs.

Dumb sh its

Out

 

[Dizel8]

I was not aware, that ATC may waive the 100/250 rule, unless due a/c performance or emergency. Not sure the FAA would look kindly, if it was done for pax connx. At least I cannot say, that I have ever heard that one on the frequency.

Secondly, how much time does one save doing 300 vs 250, a couple of minutes?

 

[hmmm]

It saves getting ahead of traffic in line on approach witch gets you to the gate faster because of some sort of delay or weather or vectoring ATC gave you. ATC knows what your company filed ETA is compared to the other guys and will help if they can if you sound like your competent.


You can help controllers by learning that when they say they were on the land line it means they were telling the next controller what they have cleared you (or someone else) to do so you (or the other guy) don't need to waste time telling the next controller you were cleared direct so and so. This is S.O.P. It doesn't means he was talking to his wife. The next controller already knows what you were cleared to do unless the last controller tells you to let the next controller know something.

Every time a controller hands you off to some other guy this controller has already talked to the next controller and told him what he has cleared you to do. He has double work compared to you. Although I would and do tell the next guy your cleared a particular speed if its outside the standard reg if you have asked for a high speed descent below 10000 above 250. But for example if the third controller hasn't cleared you for normal speed on climbout if they restricted you, query can we get normal speed.

You also don't have to bother the busy approach controller and he would apreciate it if you didn't say " You already gave us a heading of 180 and we're doing that." or " You already cleared us to descend to 6000 and we are passing 7300 for 6000".

Just repeat the frickin cleareance and continue if you are already doing it. He's f ckng busy and just double checking his work by repeating it. He'll apreciate it if you just repeat the clearance.

 

[fokkerjet]

Re: Re: FAR 91.117

[

Are you trying to say that every time ATC authorizes me to do a 300 foot per minute climb cause the pig CRJ is not making it to assigned altitude at 500 fpm I am in violation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hmmmm -job. Why don't you get your **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing attitude adjusted and get into the books a little bit..................read an AIM sometime d!ckhead! Let me give you a page out of the Jeppesen J-Aid for you to read when you get your head out of your arse...........US 4-4-5 , section 4-4-9 ADHERENCE TO CLEARANCE. This, dumb arse, is not a regulation, it's an expectation from ATC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And every time I ask for a high speed descent below 10000 of 300 kts and ATC approves because I am trying to help my pax make their connection I am in violation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Humjob........

Let's go to the AIM again! In the J-Aid page 4-4-8, section 4-4-11 SPEED ADJUSTMENTS, it's pretty clear what is expected by you, that even you should beable to understand!



Out [/B]

 

[trainerjet]

You also don't have to bother the busy controller and he would apreciate it if you didn't say " You already gave us a heading of 180 and we're doing that." or " You already cleared us to descend to 6000 and we are passing 7300 for 6000"

Just repeat the frickin cleareance and continue if you are already doing it. He's f ckng busy and just double checking his work by repeating it. He'll apreciate it if you just repeat the clearance.

Another know-it-all who has the ba11s to call everyone else "dumb sh!t".


What an a$$hole. I'm sure the Captains at your company are all chomping at the bit to fly with you.

Loser.

 

[hmmm]

You are right I'm an a s s hole and you are both still dumb s hits who can't comprehend what you are reading. Go back to grammar school.

The Capts at my company and FAA inspectors that I have been working with for a very long time have taught me most of this.

Most Captains when flying with a pain in da ss FO who thinks they know the regs and the books like you guys think you do the Capt when they get to the hotel just wants to go to his room and get away from him. I wonder why they are always inviting me back down for dinner and paying for my meal.... Maybe they're gay.... hmmmmmm Naaaa I don't think so but remember I'm a stupid guy that when I ask for a clearance to do a 300 knot high speed descent below 10000 and ATC approves it and I "adhere" to that clearance I do so. And also the dumb sh t that when the pig CRJ is having a hard time climbing at 500 fpm I ask for a clearance to climb at 300 fpm and ATC approves it I "adhere to that also. I guess I'm just flat busting the regs. I'm a reg buster I guess. Know not everyone is a dumb sh t. Just a couple people.

Oh by the way call you local FSDO again and have them tell you that the AIM is not a regualtion either. Nor is an Advisory Circular.

Did I say I am a designated representative of the FAA and know how to read regs to try to piss you off some more. Is there any more ways I can try to piss you off let me know and I'll try. Will jumpseat to see you in person if it helps.


Ass h le Out

 

[hmmm]

Re: Re: Re: FAR 91.117

By the way Gay Fokker This was about getting a clearance from ATC to deviate from the reg.

Maybe you didn't read that.

 

[trainerjet]

Oh by the way call you local FSDO again and have them tell you that the AIM is not a regualtion either. Nor is an Advisory Circular.

Oh, by all means CALL THE FSDO when you need an interpretation of the regs. They have absolute authority to give you a binding opinion. NOT.

I'm sure a designated representative of the FAA like yourself would know that, though.

Loser extraordinaire!!

But, keep on impressin' us wit' cho' knowledge, dude. You mighty smart. Yessiree!!

 

[Dizel8]

Actually, one is required to report when unable to maintain 500 fpm rate of clim or descend.


Yes, you can deviate from the regs all you want, as long as you can support your reason for doing so, ie emergency, but I have not engaged the administrator in debate, so really cannot speculate further on 250+ below ten. All I can say, is that I cannot recall ever having heard anyone ask for it, nor that my limited knowledge of the regs verifies such a thing, except in the cases listed.

 

[gump88]

After over 2000 hours in the CL 65, I can say that I have never had a problem maintaining 500 fpm in a climb to altitude. Maybe you should rethink your airspeed management?

In addition, I would NEVER violate the 250/10000 reg unless I had WRITTEN permission to do so, ie. waiver, notam, or SID. I will leave that up to the "cowboys" in this industry. Giddie up!!!

I prefer the more conservative decision making. It has kept me out of trouble so far. But, hey, what do I know???

g

 

[fokkerjet]

flamer alert

The guy is a flamer...........................

if he is who he claims to be, and he violates the 250kt rule the way he claims he does (and as a F/O to boot) wouldn't you think somebody else from his company would be sticking up for him, or at least singing praises on "how he has shown them the light, blah, blah, blah............."

 

[hmmm]

If I said who I was I couldn't have fun irritating you Gay Fokker.

If someone clears you to do something they cleared you to do something.

Never been able to maintain the profiled airspeed called for in my companies profile with a full load of pax and fuel AND be able to climb all the way to 310 or etc as filed. The profile calls for 290 untill 290 meets .74 and then .74 on up.

So thats when I say Captain... You wanna ask for a 300 fpm climb the rest of the way up. Its in our performance book and I pull it out and he says hey yea lets try it. Then we are able to climb the rest of the way up on speed. 200 fpm less for the last 5000 feet at climb power whitch is not that much extra burn and still end up with the same remaining fuel on landing. hmmm

Teach me.

Flamer Out

 

[GREAT LAKES]

HMM

Just to let you know, you will not save that much time doing 300 vs 250 below ten. You can post the longest response ever and you will never convince me. Flow is Flow. I suppose unless you were number one in the arrival gate, you would never have the option to keep the speed up. I am not saying I know it all (nor do I think I do) , but at the airports that I go to alot (EWR,JFK,TEB,ORD,ATL,DTW etc...) this would be very rare during normal hours.

 

[Brett Hull]

A little more for fokkerjet's argument

A little farther down in 4-4-11, Speed Adustments.

Paragraph J:

"For operations in a Class B, Class C, and Class D surface area, ATC is authorized to request or approve a speed greater than the maximum indicated airspeeds prescribed for operation within that airspace (14 CFR Section 91.117 (b))."

It doesn't say anything about ATC being authorized to approve greater speeds in any other type of airspace.

 

[GREAT LAKES]

HMM

Remember HMM what comes around goes around FAA or not!!!!

You need to take a couple steps back and think how you are talking to your fellow aviators. We are all in it together. If you are on top of the world now you will someday be on the bottom. It has happened to me. You need respect the people around you, and rely on them to help you out in your time of need. I'm sure some of the seasoned aviator's like general lee would agree. Maybe someone hit a "sore spot" with you regarding the regulations. If you really are a FAA guy then I suspect you know the reg's, but do you really think you should "dog" everyone out that disagrees with you?

Chill Out.

GREAT LAKES

 

[hmmm]

I'm not an FAA guy. I am a FAA Designated Inspector. (Involved in interpretation with the FAA alot, and I love to argue) I said that to make a point along with the others references above as to the differences between a designee and a delegated representative of the administrator as are ATC.

Naaa I didn't want to dawg anybody except guys that go around with 10000 to 17000 hrs on their profile acting like what they said was exact. Fire with fire. Those kind of guys irritate me yes.
The regs are lot more grey that people think.

Again if you are asked and cleared to do something no matter what it is ... you have been cleared to do so.

Signed "My designated call sign by Gay Fokker "Flamer"


Hehehe hehe Hahahha

 

[JBcrjca]

Again if you are asked and cleared to do something no matter what it is ... you have been cleared to do so

I tend to disagree with that statement. I've had controllers ask me to maintain max forward speed while flying under a Class B. We all know that 200kts is the limit under Class B, and only the Administrator can waive that...not the controller. I told the guy I would do 200 until back in the Class B, then I'd go fast. Even our company flight ops guys said the same thing...you can't just do it because the controller said so.