Just wanted to show y’all my new office!!!

[bobbysamd]

From the frying pan to the fryer, or, may I retch now?

I am 26 years old got my bachelors in business admin
at Eastern Washington and just finished Comair Academy 6 months ago, (wonderful program by the way),
except I didn’t get the first officer at Delta Connection that I was promised in their ads.

That was your first mistake. To believe a flight school ad that promises you an airline job.

So I have decided to do something productive about it that will put my career on the fast track. Yesterday I got “the call” from Mark Ottoesen that I have been accepted in Gulfstream’s First Officer Program yippee!!! I just submitted my application online 5 days ago and within 4 days of submitting it I got a response from the president no less!

Yippee, yahoo!!! Sorry to burst your bubble, my friend, but the "President" responds to everyone.

This is a classic example of what I've maintained all along about P-F-T. P-F-T outfits make a big deal about their stringent "hiring" "requirements" and their "comprehensive" applicant screening "process." Obviously, the only screening this individual underwent was if he wrote his check accurately and/or a credit check!

I am very excited to be starting this training feel that the SIC turbine time will be golden when it comes time to start goin for the big boys. My only regret is that I didn’t find this ad in AOPA Flight Training Magazine sooner.

Apparently you have missed a few of the posts on this subject. What you are doing is what is called "pay-for-training." You are really hoping that by paying for a "job" with Gulfstream you can circumvent the traditional career-building path that those who've paved the way for you have taken. By doing so, as the cliche goes, you can expect to encounter turbulence from your peers who have done it the accepted, traditional way.

While I appreciate views from others who sincerely believe that Gulfstream is not P-F-T, I feel the following words, taken from the Gulfstream website, says all:

RULE #1: "AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING IS NOTHING WITHOUT AN EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY." Gulfstream not only provides the best training in the industry but also the best opportunity for Part-121 airline employment . . . .

(emphasis added)

Even the place itself makes no bones about being P-F-T.

For my contribution to FlightInfo I plan to do what others have done and do a day-by-day diary of my training so I can share with all you good folks my achievements as I progress.

Don't do us any favors.

I start in 3 weeks do any of you who have done the program have any tips as I study like crazy for my F/O slot?

Yes. Although others have said that Gulfstream refunds unused training tuition cheerfully, you should put a lawyer on retainer so you can hold their feet to the fire to get back your training fee in case they wash you out of training.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

Oh Ok now I understand, but I have to admit if I had the money and I was wanting to be a pilot and I wasnt getting anywhere, I think I would do this?

Read my post above, especially the part about Gulfstream offering the best Part 121 employment opportunity in the country, and reread Timebuilder's post. The long and short of it is that paying-for-training is an employment issue. You don't pay for a job, and while professional piloting is a great job for many, it boils down to just being a job. Would you pay for a job in any other industry?

I realize the original poster claims to be flamebaiting deliberately, but others who might be considering P-F-T might learn from this and other P-F-T discussions.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T v. initial training

I am now sorta confused. Do you just pay for you initial training to get into a PFT or all your training (including recurrency training)?

Compare initial training to going to college (which you should do anyway, right, YIP?) or to a trade school or vo-tech. You obtain initial training for the credentials you need for your chosen vocation. After that, if any company which offers you a job requires you to pay for your training to perform that job, including that company's initial, recurrent, transition or differences training, it is P-F-T. And, that is something you should not tolerate.

Hope that helps.

 

[low-n-slow]

We should have a flight info cookoff!

I don't know about that Texan, I've spent several seasons working in west Texas and whenever it comes to Brisket and steaks you folks sure do know how to make them right.

 

[low-n-slow]

That was your first mistake. To believe a flight school ad that promises you an airline job.Yippee, yahoo!!! Sorry to burst your bubble, my friend, but the "President" responds to everyone.

Whatever happened to the good old days whenever people earned their way to the top by working hard and being diligent, seems to me in today's society a lot of people want everything for nothing.

 

[bobbysamd]

An excellent question . . . .

Whatever happened to the good old days whenever people earned their way to the top by working hard and being diligent, seems to me in today's society a lot of people want everything for nothing.

I don't understand it, either. I'm old-school. I gladly started at the bottom in three careers and worked my way (somewhat) up. All I ever asked for was a chance.

Somehow, and sadly, diligence and hard work these days frequently goes unrewarded. Maybe that's why people want instant gratification. Maybe that's why those who have worked hard to earn what they have resent those who try to short-cut the process. Here, again, I'm old-school, and that's one reason why I resent P-F-Ters. Not to mention the demeaning and humiliating notions of not being good enough to get a job without having to pay for it, and succumbing to employers who make you do it. It's tough enough having to put up with employer bullsh1t without having to pay for your job as well.

 

[low-n-slow]

It's tough enough having to put up with employer bullsh1t without having to pay for your job as well.

We went through this same scenerio in our industry several years ago. A few operators would hire people with very little or no ag time because they didn't have to pay them didley squat, after paying for a few wrecked airplanes and crop claims this practiced ceased. I actually worked for a guy that was put out of business because inexperienced pilots wrecked 4 airplanes in 6 months...I was glad I quit that yahoot several months prior!

I'm like you Bobby, old school and don't mind earning my keep.

 

[Timebuilder]

At the risk of irritating some other members, let me say a big "amen" to the idea of dilligence and hard work, as opposed to entitlements, special privilieges and shortcuts.

Dilligence, hard work, professionalism, and rugged individualism are tenets of conservatism, and are true American values.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I don't know about that Texan, I've spent several seasons working in west Texas and whenever it comes to Brisket and steaks you folks sure do know how to make them right.

My father won a few categories at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo BBQ championship a few years back, I might just use some of his tricks... Either way, I think it would be more drinking beer and P51 stories than anything.

 

[Dubya]

Wow

How in hades did this thread make it this far?

W?

 

[wildbill]

Bobbysand as always, gave an eloquent description of the situation and as far as "the new office" it should be about over. Now as to why this has dragged on. The word BBQ or the possibilities of finding "GREAT" BBQ will cause this thread to draw a life of its own. Am I correct?

 

[enigma]

How in hades did this thread make it this far?

W?

Brisket

Pulled Pork

Ribs

Etc,

enigma

 

[Hemispheres]

We must be leading a boring exsistence on this late Spring afternoon hunkered over our computers instead of enjoying bar-b-que and fine libations. Oh wait a minute, I'm stuck in a hotel in Winnipeg, Manitoba for the next couple of days so I will defer my ambrosia and drink until I return home and continue to surf while I ponder the issue of PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T v. Food

Bobbysand as always, gave an eloquent description of the situation and as far as "the new office" it should be about over.

Thank you, sir.

Now as to why this has dragged on. The word BBQ or the possibilities of finding "GREAT" BBQ will cause this thread to draw a life of its own. Am I correct?

We can talk about best sushi restaurants.

A great place for the $100 hamburger near Centennial Airport in Denver is Cheesy Jane's, just down the road.

 

[embdrvr]

Sure are a lot of gauges, levers, switches, and stuff. Great picture!

Are those built in ashtrays sitting on top of the dash?

 

[bobbysamd]

Oh, what the heck?

The word BBQ or the possibilities of finding "GREAT" BBQ will cause this thread to draw a life of its own. Am I correct?

Definitely. Brothers BBQ, with several locations in Denver, including one near Centennial, is the best in town, in my $0.02 opinion.

 

[gottafly]

Maybe I can shed some insight into why someone might consider pft. Wish I had found this forum before then...but anyway. I considered it for a month's worth of ground school at one of the FL fast tracks. Why did I consider it? Because the CFI job was earning me about $600/month IF business was good. I don't have a wife or SO helping to take up the slack financially. Every flight school I contacted that had a busier clientele base had more than enough instructors waiting to move on, but nowhere to move on to. Working another job kept me unavailable often when I was needed to flight instruct. But bills have to be paid.

I was not looking for an easy way in, I was looking for a way to not give up all the training and money I have spent to become a professionial pilot. Sheer desperation and hitting dead ends everywhere motivated me to fall for the recruiter's pitch. I was not even slightly averse to hard work, earning my dues, doing things the 'old' way. But I could not find a way to do that! I don't think I am the only one who was hitting a brick wall getting anywhere in aviation. I really don't know how anyone does it without a wife or someone else covering them financially.

I successfully completed the month long ground school at the fast track and was granted an interview with a regional that seems to have quit hiring pft while I was there. Pretty good joke, huh? But the good news is that I will be refunded the money that would have been spent on the type rating. And the industry is looking up in recent months. I might use the student loan money refund to buy a little taildragger to help build time. And I have an interview at Scenic end of this month. I am afraid to be optimistic, but maybe I'll get a break and get hired. If not, then things are looking better that eventually I will get hired somewhere if I can figure out a way to eat, drive and build time.

fwiw

 

[Hemispheres]

Kansas City is the undisputed King of Bar-b-que. For those who have dined on KC BBQ I am sure you will agree. Some of my local favorites. Arthur Bryants, Smokestack, Jacks Stack, Gates, Sneads, Hickory pit, and so on. KC BBQ reigns supreme over Texas BBQ and Southern BBQ. Finis.

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T and Scenic

I was not looking for an easy way in, I was looking for a way to not give up all the training and money I have spent to become a professionial pilot. Sheer desperation and hitting dead ends everywhere motivated me to fall for the recruiter's pitch. I was not even slightly averse to hard work, earning my dues, doing things the 'old' way. But I could not find a way to do that! I don't think I am the only one who was hitting a brick wall getting anywhere in aviation.

You are not. In 1991, with about 3000 hours, 700 multi, an ATP and type rating and with five unsuccessful commuter interviews under my belt, I was getting nowhere. P-F-T was starting up at that time.

I never heard of such a thing. I was still relatively new to aviation, but I was older than most regional applicants and had several years of work experience. My primary reaction to P-F-T was it was a scam. My secondary reaction was although was my only ambition and goal was just a regional job that it was still only a job. There were other things that I could do for work and I was not going to lower myself to buy a job, no matter how badly I wanted it. It is bad enough how employers exploit employees. I was not about to suffer further exploitation by paying for my job. Once more, I am old-school.

And I have an interview at Scenic end of this month.

What is the secret? I applied to Scenic off-and-on for seven years, starting with less than a thousand hours and ending with the totals you see at the left, and never heard anything from them.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Definitely. Brothers BBQ, with several locations in Denver, including one near Centennial, is the best in town, in my $0.02 opinion.

Next time I'm in Denver I'll pm you, BBQ and a beer if you're interested..