Just Got Off Work - Welcome To My Hell

[larry]

I had a student tell me on lesson two that I needed to keep my hands off the controls and let him fly more. He was not nice about it. The next lesson we go up in a C-172 and try some power off stalls 3000FT AGL. Once in the stall the left wing drops, he adds full right aileron, the nose drops, he yanks back on the yoke. The plane rolls over into a nice spin, and for those of you who couldn’t get a C-172 to stay in a spin when you tried, do it with flaps and it makes for a nice steady spin. The student is now holding full back pressure and opposite aileron in the spin and gasping for air, we are sinking at a pretty slow rate so I just say, “hmmm, I’m not supposed to touch the controls so why don’t you take out the flaps, put the ailerons to neutral, release the back pressure and apply rudder opposite the director of our rotation” The student is now hyperventilating and finally lets go of the controls (I think o cover his eyes) and of course the plane promptly pops out of the spin on its own. I got an e-mail two days later that he was not going to continue his training.

 

[tarp]

Starving -

I get it, funny ha-ha. (Just so you don't think that I'm brain dead).

BUT........isn't repeating yourself like that getting on the edge of psychotic? (And I do understand you think you are in he11) I just can't repeat things that many times. If I hear myself repeating something three times (3x) then its time for ME to do something different.

Like Bobby said, the student is very distracted up there. That bouncy 172 has got way more attraction than my voice. So I have to fight for their attention.

Let's take your "right rudder" - I can't think of any better teaching aid then to say nothing at all. Some day you're not going to be there saying "right rudder, right rudder, right rudder". Heck, on a stall/slow flight entry, AFTER I"VE TAUGHT THE IDEA OF RIGHT RUDDER COMPLETELY, I would probably do nothing and in fact if the student has a tendency not to react, I might even put a little instructor induced left pressure. You think the student will get the idea now that the airplane is turning left. Yes, YOU have to work harder and be more confident in the airplane. To push left rudder on a stall, you have to have your hand pushing the yoke in gently and the right foot ready to push the pedal to the proper position.

That FOI has "Intensity" as a learning tool - I use it a lot. Because I've been ignored for a lot of years and gone home with a lot of sore throats from trying to yell over the din of 172's/152's all day. I found out that it was a whole lot easier to let students learn from their mistakes instead of me trying to beat them over the head with a baseball bat.

My teaching method is a running commentary (kind of a checklist of items) as the procedure develops. If I stop and criticize one thing, then the student becomes myopic on that one thing. Instructor does and instructor talks
Student does and instructor talks
Student does and student talks.

Music to my ears:
Student (S): "OK, clearing turns, starting left, clear left"
Me(I): "Clear right"
S: "Turning right"
I: "Clear Right again"
S: "Clear left, heading for the water tank, gas on proper tank, undercarriage welded, mixture rich, prop bolted, seat belts fastened, switches....lights and pumps are on. 35 hundred feet, power to idle, holding 35 hundred, got the water tank, looking for the white arc, white arc, first notch of flaps..." (by the way, my students won't say anything about the rudder unless the "water tank" or an assigned heading get away from them!)

I don't get sore throats anymore, the door frames have all been sanded and repainted and look great (I'm not pounding my head against them) and I still love teaching.

 

[bobbysamd]

Cultural differences among students

Larry's comments are interesting. I recall a few American students who thought they knew more about receiving instruction than I did about providing it.

I've instructed American and foreign students. I found that a great number of American students do not take kindly to a firm, intense, but friendly, approach to instruction. It's for their own good. In other words, try to impose a little discipline, i.e. tough love, and you receive forms of passive aggression. Compare it to European students, who apparently appreciate a firm, intense, but always friendly, approach. The Italians I had did well with me and I enjoyed them immensely.

I remember a student I had at Mesa. Part of the Mesa program is to learn its line callouts from hour one of Bonanza primary training. Students had to say the callouts out loud during the various phases of flight. I harped on this student endlessly to learn his callouts. I explained how it was important and how it related directly to the 1900 he would fly eventually for Mesa (always keeping it positive). He refused, endlessly. I finally soloed him but he changed instructors, except for his first dual cross-country, for which he was not prepared at departure time. I don't believe he came back for the next term. This was not some high school punk in his first semester of college; this was an ex-Navy Gulf War vet. I expected more from the likes of him.

I think it has to do with schools. Teachers in American schools have had their legs cut out from under them and cannot impose the necessary authority to do their jobs. All teachers require authority to do their jobs. They apparently have it elsewhere, because European schools are strict.

 

[hagen]

I remember this one student. Foreign and didn't like harsh criticism b/c I dished the sheit out. So we are crusing on a x/c flight and he turns to me and says "I'm sick take the plane". Hell no I says. What if you were in here by yourself. So At least I let him turn around and start trucking back home. Yeah he again wants me to take the plane. NOPE!!!!. SO he opens the window, pukes out the side I'm forcing his head out now to keep from puking in the plane. We start flying who knows where. And I make him fly it the whole way back. Him puking a couple times more. Even during the flare I think.

To those who think their sheit don't stink. was that the smartest thing. Not really. Did it put him in a realistic situation? You bet cha.

NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH HIM AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And he turned out to be a good stick too

Dude hang in there. I remember back to those CFI days as some of the best ones. Seeing the crap you used to do and fly just to get an hour of flt time and your still alive is funny enough. And remember those students look up to you. Everyone's got their own unique way of instructing and thats what makes it cool.

Take it all with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have had it any other way.

 

[RichardFitzwel9]

StarvingCFI,
Just started reading this thread and I don't know whats funnier, your first post or the posts of the couple of guys criticizing you and giving you advice. Its guys like flyhard that take the fun out of EVERYTHING. Thats hilarious.....

One of my personal favorites:

Leaving for a dual cross-country(not the first). And I'll also point out he also had a handheld GPS that was programmed correctly with the flight plan.

CFI: So which general direction should we be flying to get to XYZ
airport?
Student: Uh...southwest, why?
CFI: Which direction are we heading?
Student: Uh...southeast
CFI: So ya think maybe we should make a turn?
Student: Nah, I think we'll be alright
CFI: Ok, we'll go this way. But just out of curiosity what was the
Mag heading you briefed me on?
Student: 205
CFI: Whats our heading now?
Student: 165
CFI: See a problem with that?
Student: Not really, after all I'm following the hi-way that goes
right by XYZ airport
CFI: Oh really? You mean the highway thats now 10 miles to the
west of us?
Student: No, no offense but I've lived here longer than you, I
think I know the roads around here.
CFI: OK, my apologies, continue
1 hour later
Student: Um, I think we should have seen the town and airport
by now.....um, I think um, yeah maybe I'm a little lost.

 

[surplus1]

"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach, teach teachers." -- Horowitz

 

[starvingcfi]

haha. great responses. now this is what i was looking for. thanks a lot.

starvingcfi

 

[Typhoon1244]

I knew a guy who was with a student making an approach over a "noise-sensetive" area. The PAPI's all red, the airplane's sinking, and the student's holding about 15% power. (I don't remember R.P.M. settings anymore.)

Finally, our hero asks the student: "Say, Abdul, we're getting pretty low, aren't we?"

Student: "Oh yes, yes we are."

Instructor, after a pause: "Think we ought to do something about it?"

Student: "Oh, but we are not to make any undue noise over--"

Our hero rudely shoves the throttle (and the student's hand) to takeoff power and says firmly: "We don't care how much noise we make...if we're gonna crash!" As the student worked on stabilizing the airplane, our hero then popped the window open and began shouting down at the country club: "F___ you! F___you all!"

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I knew a guy who was with a student making an approach over a "noise-sensetive" area. The PAPI's all red, the airplane's sinking, and the student's holding about 15% power. (I don't remember R.P.M. settings anymore.)

Finally, our hero asks the student: "Say, Abdul, we're getting pretty low, aren't we?"

Student: "Oh yes, yes we are."

Instructor, after a pause: "Think we ought to do something about it?"

Student: "Oh, but we are not to make any undue noise over--"

Our hero rudely shoves the throttle (and the student's hand) to takeoff power and says firmly: "We don't care how much noise we make...if we're gonna crash!" As the student worked on stabilizing the airplane, our hero then popped the window open and began shouting down at the country club: "F___ you! F___you all!"

funniest thing I read all week, bar none...well, maybe that lady's essay on why she digs pilots was a little better

 

[ShawnC]

you remember the pitch for 70kts. just put it there. there. right there. no. JESUS! MY PLANE! ok. don't do that again.

So you were the aircraft that I saw doing that in the east practice area at 2600' ft?

Also of you want them to pay attention better I heard poking them with a fork everytime they do something wrong works.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Starving, I think bobbysamd gave you the secret. If students only hear 18%, then he only heard you say "right rudder" once or twice.

 

[infoman]

Starving and all the others,

Thanks for the great stories. Takes me back to those 7 day work weeks and those great memories!

I have no advice to give,because I am still figuring out how all this stuff works.

P.S. Anyone with a good sense of humor, dry or not, has already made it in aviation.

 

[TXCAP4228]

P.S. Anyone with a good sense of humor, dry or not, has already made it in aviation.

Maybe there's hope for me after all.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I knew a guy who was with a student making an approach over a "noise-sensetive" area. The PAPI's all red, the airplane's sinking, and the student's holding about 15% power. (I don't remember R.P.M. settings anymore.)

Finally, our hero asks the student: "Say, Abdul, we're getting pretty low, aren't we?"

Student: "Oh yes, yes we are."

Instructor, after a pause: "Think we ought to do something about it?"

Student: "Oh, but we are not to make any undue noise over--"

Our hero rudely shoves the throttle (and the student's hand) to takeoff power and says firmly: "We don't care how much noise we make...if we're gonna crash!" As the student worked on stabilizing the airplane, our hero then popped the window open and began shouting down at the country club: "F___ you! F___you all!"

That sheyat was funny as hell!!

 

[cessna_driver2]

Re: Re: Just Got Off Work - Welcome To My Hell

Also of you want them to pay attention better I heard poking them with a fork everytime they do something wrong works. [/B]

I know opening the window in the dead of winter at alt. in a 172 got me on course during a cross country.

I thought I would never warm up.

 

[N8157B]

If instructing is half as much fun as what I have just read I am in for a treat!!!

 

[100LL... Again!]

I don't think of the endless repetitions as wasted breath.

You HAVE to keep saying it to cut through all of the distractions that they are letting lead them away from whatever the core task is.

My pet peeve on instructors: CFI's who touch the flight controls constantly instead of talking the student through the correction.

These grabby folks are doing no one any good. If you ain't gonna die, keepa you hands offa da yoke. This is a sign of weak instructional skills.

 

[Pilotadjuster]

right rudder!

I can still hear in my head on short final "right rudder..centerline...right rudder...right rudder.........MY AIRPLANE...

surprised the guy will actually have a beer with me now....must have aged him about 30 years in the 30 hours we flew together!

I'm sure my "payback" is coming soon in the form of a student just like me...


Oh, and as far as keeping your hands off unless you're gonna die, I agree. My advanced (Inst, comm, cfi) instructor used to use pressure on the yoke (no "my airplane") to correct problems and talk through it at the same time (ie--"like this, just a little more back pressure...).

Of course when you're in the flare and the student doesn't see how the aircraft is goin sideways over the runway, there isn't much choice....

 

[CFI'er]

Hey "starvingcfi"

What type of rating is a ASMELI CFI any how? I only know what CFI, CFII and MEI means on my tickets. Is this a new age certificate?

 

[Northern Lights]

ASMELI

ASMELI, CFI

Probably
Commercial pilot Airplane, Single and Multi-engine Land, with Instrument rating. And also a CFI.

 

[starvingcfi]

northern hit it on the head. well, that and i can't afford soap.


smellycfi

 

[Flywrite]

Why is it that students have no trouble at all maintaining 2,600 (or 3,100, 3,400...etc) but can not seem to manage to hit the 0 or 5?

I remember one of my first students who loved being at 2,600. On one flight I made the suggestion that he try to get his altitude on exactly 2,500 feet. He closed one eye, squinted atthe altimiter then reached up and turned the knob to nail 2,500 feet. After that I made a point of specifying that the airplane should move to the required altitude.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

starvingcfi,

just do what the rest of us CFIs did.....drink a lot after a day like that.....

I think YOU WILL look back at being a CFi as lot of fun, but something you would nver want to repeat!

 

[starvingcfi]

i think you're right. i'm having a lot of fun, but i would never want to go through this again. just so many hoops to jump through. i've been working on that multi hoop for the past year. networking. trying to find something. so far, this year, i've gotten 8 hours of multi. 3 hrs i paid for. the other 5 i lucked out and got a trip with another instructor. one time deal. it's hard, but i'm still looking. any leads? thanks a lot.

starvingcfi

 

[AVI8V1]

HAHAHAHAHA.

So funny! My grandpa used to flight instruct and he put his students in spins while on downwind when they started getting cocky. He said he wouldn't help them recover. He's 87 now, so I guess he and his students lived. Times were different. But one thing stays the same. You've gotta have confidence in the quality of instruction you are providing. That helps me to not grab the controls.
About that hearing thing. Its true, the first thing to go when you're stressed is your ability to hear. Plus anything you do hear is not understood completely as it would be in a classroom. I say the cockpit is a lousy classroom. Thorough pre and post briefing plus student effort at home helps me to be a decent instructor in the cockpit. For every hour of flying we do YOU will put in at least that much on the ground. Saves them hobbs time=saves them money.

Here's my funny story. I volunteered to administer a simulated instrument checkride to the typical "I want an instrument rating NOW, sign my book" student. He told me during preflight that he was so ready, his instrucor is stalling signing him off. (This is like his fourth instructor because he's hunting for the sign off) Told him we were simulating a real instrument flight. Told him his clearance was on request with me, ATC. (all you instructors know this before flight classroom briefing).
Not one chart out not one tinge of hestation and the guy just took off. "OK, lets put the hood on, I've got the flight controls" I say, feeling somewhat suprised. I give him the controls back in a little nose up unusual attitude and recovers nicely. "What altitude are you climbing to and to where and what are you navigating with?" No response- takes out his TERPS and start looking for the local VORTAC. I cut him some slack and remind him of the breifing we agreed to and hooked him up with his clearance. He wrote it on the TERPS. He had the ring binder type NOS charts but no rings so as he wrote he spilled about 3/4 of them on the floor. Told him about how a simple solution like having some paper would make his cockpit more manageable, then nudged him toward the L-chart and we were on our way.
You know when you explain to your student on an approach or something why they just simulated killing themselves? Well, this gentleman must have been part feline because if he was on his own he would have killed himself about nine times in under an hour.
OK, so I give him a little instruction and we're back at it. Just putting in correct radial numbers, let alone actually tracking them, was of utmost difficulty. So he's starting to realize that maybe he's not ready for instrument flying. I'm getting my point across, I think. He's making so many errors that it is starting to become apparent to him.
I suggest we head home and I decide to give him some instruction. I tell him to go direct to a VOR. As he's fiddling with the CDI and before he ID's it I turn the NAV radio off. 'Someone's about to learn a lesson about IDing NAVAIDS' I pleasantly think to myself. We fly for like a minute and he turns to me and says, "Hey, lookie that! Centered needles! Ha! Centered needles!" He was like 90 degrees or more off course.
But I must give him some credit, he landed his brand new $180,000 fully loaded 172 SP on the runway. I wasn't expecting that at all.

 

[wanabe_fo]

just got off work to

I just got home from teaching my two private students. 1 of them can not learn the 360 degrees of the compass to save his life. I tell him 030 and he turns to 330 etc, etc, etc.

My other student this morning could not seem to turn and climb or turn and decend at the same time. So what did I do, took all my instrument covers out and covered everything but the altimiter up including the compass. He did much better after that. I had to cover up the compass because he was trying to make all his turns via the comass not the DG. I explained to the extent primary students need to know lead and lag but he still was trying to roll out late and too soon.

It is all pretty funny though and was laughing my but off here reading all this.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Wannabe FO:

Just think, all that experience watching over guys that are behind the airplane will come in very handy when you are a commuter captain flying with a 400 hr bridge program grad who thought that being a CFI was beneath him.

Think I'm kiddin'? Only a little.

A good CFI impresses me WAY more than an average airline pilot.

 

[bobbysamd]

CFI

Wannabe FO:

Just think, all that experience watching over guys that are behind the airplane will come in very handy when you are a commuter captain flying with a 400 hr bridge program grad who thought that being a CFI was beneath him.

Think I'm kiddin'? Only a little.

A good CFI impresses me WAY more than an average airline pilot.

Now, aren't you glad you guys became instructors? See how much you're really learning about flying?

Maybe I contributed by turning out competent pilots. Many of my students went on to the airlines. As it turned out, my students were the best instructors I ever had.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Am I the only one who used to carry a squirt gun on lessons?

I'd give the students 3 trys before they got blasted.

"Watch your altitude."

"Watch your altitude."

"Watch your altitude."

SQUIRT SQUIRT SQUIRT

Worked like a charm.

(I used to use the same technique on FOs, til the TSA started confiscating my squirtguns)

 

[Sc00ter]

Wannabe FO:
A good CFI impresses me WAY more than an average airline pilot.

Thank 100LL. It's good to be reminded of every now and then.

Fly safe,

scoot