jumpseat abuse on jetblue

[CALformerCALX]

You also said you were in grade school around the CAL strike, so to have 11 years longevity would be a least a 92 hire at CALEX.
The numbers don't add up.

Well lets see I never said anything about grade school. I said Little League. 1983. Your the one making crap up. But your not far off on the CALX hire date. I was a transition program guy. I'm in my 12 year as far as pay is concerned. Which means I have completed a full 11 years, hence the 35 days vacation.

This is pointless.

 

[Boeingman]

Like the ex Express guy I flew with last week who was proud of his 94 hour LV. Comments?

Your the one who flew with the guy. Your the pro-CAL CA with the ALPA pin that has a star. What were your comments to him? I think that should be the question. If I was his CA I would have asked him why he is so proud of keeping fellow pilots on the street with his obvious greed.

I am pro CAL "pilot". Not a company man i.e pro CAL. And you're not going to like this, but I don't wear my ALPA pin because of reasons that I don't think you'll understand. I pay my dues, I'll walk in a heartbeat, I do everything ALPA asks of me, I attend (when I can) all union functions, but I feel that ALPA left us out in the cold during the strike and I was not pleased with events leading up to the walkout nor how it was handled.

My comments were brief about his LV and I think I got my point across to him over the pond. I mention the pond to inflect the fact that it was a long and silent flight after that initial exchange.

And although I didn't quote this part I will respond. No I've never seen Prof Standards, the CP, or HR? for that matter. But my statement is true that you can't talk ALPA at the training center becaue noone over ther wears the pin and they are very open how they fell about ALPA. I ain't about to open my mouth. Hence the reason I have had no problems with management.

But you made it sound like you've had problems directly. If not, someonme close to you or you know. So let me repahse the question. Has anyone to your knowledge suffering through these indignities sought out the help I just referenced?

You are secure at CAL(senior) and you have money, lots of toys, side business and the overall good life. I'm happy for you and I'm glad you bid all your vacation-I really am, and I'm impressed with the low LV-truly. Thanks. But go back to 1983 when you didn't have all this and you and John Prater (hired 78), were on the picket line. If you had had laptops and the internet then I would have loved to see how pro-CAL you were then. I would bet your feelings were in line with mine now about this place. Otherwise you would not have been on strike.

You're taking me out of context about this "Pro CAL" mantra. Just because I am coming down on you about your comments does not make me "Pro CAL" (or pro scab for that matter). I am trying to point out to you that your berating about issues totally beyond your control does nothing to help your fellow pilots right now. You made choices however and I don't agree with your overall theme. Nothing more, nothing less.

Interesting comment about the internet and such back then. With the piss poor communications from CALALPA and the emotions running rampent, I'm not sure what the outcome would of been. I do know that I walked on principle and you may find this hard to believe, but the strike was so f'd up I never blamed anyone for crossing nor did I harbor ill will when I returned.

Actually, the strike was the best thing that ever happened to me. It forced me to start a business which has made my life comfortable knowing I can walk anytime and never look back.

 

[Boeingman]

Well lets see I never said anything about grade school. I said Little League. 1983. Your the one making crap up. But your not far off on the CALX hire date. I was a transition program guy. I'm in my 12 year as far as pay is concerned. Which means I have completed a full 11 years, hence the 35 days vacation.

This is pointless.

I wasn't making anything up, just to lazy to go and read the prior posts. I think if you said little league I was thinking grade school.

You're right it is pointless but it's late, a tough night at the club and I got nothing better to do.

I will digresss from here. Good luck in your future endevours.

 

[CALformerCALX]

Ironicaly, I would not speak this way at work. If someone asked me how things were going I'd say fine and you. My CRM is fine. I've never failed any ride or been in any trouble what-so-ever. So yes, the vail of annonimity is apparent. But someone asked me my reasons for trying to leave and I started in harder than I should have.

Sounds like you and I would probably get along because you'd never know I was thinking about leaving and you'd see that I'm pro-union as you are and I would not bad mouth the company in the cockpit anyway. I hold these feelings to myself when at work. No one needs to know when someone is looking to get out. If I am fortunate enough to get on at one of the three or four carriers I'd like to go to then I'll professionally show up and turn in my ID to the CPO. Say thanks and good-bye. Until then you'll never know me on the line. I do have the feelings about the SCABS for what they represent and the IAH LEC is well in a word. Unbelievable. You might be friends with Jay but I still do not feel an ALPA strike breaker should be allowed to hold a that high of a position in ALPA. Amnesty or not.

Oh, well. I've got to get up early as I have a show at 0700 in the lobby. Time to turn off the laptop. It's been fun. I'm sure we've entertained a few tonight.

 

[Ty Webb]

There were no scabs in '97 at NWA. The scabs were mostly from the strikes in the '60s and '70s strikes. But then again NWA used to be nicknamed Cobra Airlines, because they would strike at anything.

Can you believe that in the past 3 months, there have been two AirTran captains that I know personally who have been refused a cabin "jumpseat" by a NWA pilot because we "have a bunch of scabs working at AirTran".

While we do have scabs, it's a pretty small percentage of our 850 pilots . . . probably less than 10%! Guess this guy forgot that most airlines have some scabs, and NWA is no different.

Even worse, though, is the fact that not all EAL pilots were scabs!

Many worked 15+ years there, went out on strike, and never went back.

They were the ones who had their own jobs scabbed, went without a flying job for years . . . and then, they finally get a job at AirTran, only to have some pathetic pile of puke in a NWA left seat decide to play God and deny all AIrTran pilots a ride?

Give me a break. It's a good thing it wasn't me, because the next 10 NWA pilots that wanted to ride with me would have been told "Sorry" and given this jackass's name and employee number and told to thank him for being left at the gate.

Some of you have cried and whined that this is "wrong" but to me, this is the most effective way to reign in the few stray idiots.

Fire Away.

 

[AKAAB]

A few scattered notes on jumpseating:

1) Yesterday a Flexjet pilot, travelling in uniform with a ticket, got mad when the #1 F/A asked him if he wanted to introduce himself to the crew. " I have a ticket...," he complained. I asked her to explain to him it was simply a request for courtesy so we could know what kind of resources we had in case of an emergency in the back. If he is travelling in uniform, passengers assume he is an airline pilot and will look to him for help if there is a problem. He never came to the cockpit.

2) Also, yesterday, had to deal with an FFDO jumpseater. What a hassle! We have to have one of our employees break off from their duties to escort this guy around (company security policy). Word is he failed to disclose that he was an FFDO recently which prompted the escort policy. I hope the other FFDO's out there are a little easier to work with.

3) There are many Captains out there that tell the FA's they do not need to see the non-revs/jumpseaters because of the traffic jam created when passengers are trying to board, or if they board last, because of the delay closing up and pushing on time. On one hand, the non-rev/jumpseat is not riding in the cockpit and is given a seat by the gate agent. On the other hand, the point that matters more to me is that they are gaining access to our aircraft by virtue of their credentials as 121 pilots and FA's. If you are using your status as a 121 employee to take a seat on another carrier's aircraft, you should at least ask the FA if the Captain wants to see you. That way, the donuts and Toblerones actually make it to the cockpit!

4) Did I mention that FFDO jumpseaters are a hassle?

;-)
AKAAB

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

Can you believe that in the past 3 months, there have been two AirTran captains that I know personally who have been refused a cabin "jumpseat" by a NWA pilot because we "have a bunch of scabs working at AirTran".

That is very unprofessional of those NWA pilots who denied them. They should have taken out a scab list and checked first. That's the more professional way.

 

[Ty Webb]

That is very unprofessional of those NWA pilots who denied them. They should have taken out a scab list and checked first. That's the more professional way.

Yeah. but if they had done that, they would have found that these guys, like most of us, are not scabs, which they probably did know, they just wanted an opportunity to be an @sshole to a competitor . . .

It's my understanding that this is being pursued at the highest level right now, as it should be.

 

[Boeingman]

That is very unprofessional of those NWA pilots who denied them. They should have taken out a scab list and checked first. That's the more professional way.

But what happens if you walk up for a jumpseat and someone pulls out a scab list and says: "sorry you're not on my list so you don't ride".

My point is the scab who is denied will no doubt deny many of your fellow pilots who are trying to get somewhere. Besides, I seriously doubt any scabs are looking for jumpseats en masse anyways. Jumpseat politics while maybe great for getting your point across only ends up hurting someone else later on.

I always thought it was a better venue to give them an education, then let them ride knowing that I was the better moral and ethical individual.

That to me is professionalism.

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

I always thought it was a better venue to give them an education.

Someone backstabs their fellow pilots and steals their jobs, and you are going to try to "educate" them?

 

[mnboyev]

Well... as always, this is a hot topic. I fully agree, as most pilots would, that the js rider should and must stop by the front office.

Ive seen that a few have come to expect to be 'on' and not have to 'check-in'. We had 3 folks going from ATL to MEM a couple weeks back. Never stopped by. Well, ol cappy 'educated' them on the finer points involved with jumping on your neighbors airmachine....

The Ol DC-10 driver was pissed and didnt understand why the Ca was upset with him and his boys. I specifically asked if they had tickets or were jumping to MEM. I told him we just wanted them to stop by and check in... Just as we would if we rode on somebody elses jet. He said the agent gave them a seat assignmet.... Well folks here lies the problem ... TSA .. Post 9/11 Bla Bla Bla... It is still a courtesy to provide a seat for commuters last I checked. For which a freindly thanks and a nod should be standard ops.. Get out your license and medical folks. Save the tradition and keep from an embarrasing a-- chewing.

 

[717pilot]

TY-If your remember on one of those flights that the NWA CAPT said no to the J/S the Female F/O spoke up and said to the AIRTRAN pilot...."Its because of airlines like you that we are in the shape we are in" Amazing!

 

[CALformerCALX]

the Female F/O spoke up and said to the AIRTRAN pilot...."Its because of airlines like you that we are in the shape we are in" Amazing!

And I'd be willing to bet she had 350 hours when she got a King Air job.

600 hours when she got a regional airline job.

A total of 1500 hours when she got her first of three interviews with three different majors.

And finally got hired at NWA because she had 2000 hours and finally went and bought an ATP because she never made CA at the regional and had no PIC turbine.

But during all that NWA looked over 2000 CAs at the regionals with 5000 hours of PIC time. But they weren't as qualified as she was.

...but I could be wrong.

 

[UpNDownGuy]

I don't know where to begin with this...

I am amazed at what I'm reading here. I have to question whether most of these posts are from professional pilots. Diregarding the whole "CAL" vs "CalEXP" theme, I am disturbed by what I am reading here. This isn't brain surgery folks. Let me respond to some of these posts:


AKAAB: You found fault with the Exec-Jet pilot whom you expected to introduce himself... I don't know where to begin. Number one, he's a paying customer...leave him alone! I travel on a LOT of other airlines, almost always as a full-fare pax, and sometimes in uniform. If you question whether or not a pilot is traveling for free, look at the manifest, don't bother me. I don't feel the slightest responsibility to introduce myself to the pilots up front...I've got a full-fare ticket in my pocket! Leave me alone! I've probably been on duty for about 20 hours before I show up on your airplane, and trust me, I'm not in the mood to be screwed with... Wait until you have an actual emergency before you start recruiting my exhausted a$$. I'm my own travel agency...I get to pick what airline to fly on, and when, and if I get hassled by a crew, I'm looking elsewhere.


Ty Webb: You simultaneously denounce NWA for leaving your jumpseaters behind, then threaten to do the same to NWA pilots...Why would your leaving NWA pilots behind not be subject to "being pursued at the highest level right now, as it should be"? What's the difference between leaving your pilots behind for no good reason versus leaving their pilots behind for no good reason? Being pi$$ed off isn't a good reason to treat an innocent pilot wrongly.

As far as reciprocity goes: things balance out. I've been lucky enough in my career to work for companies that weren't opposed to jumpseaters in principle. At one point, I worked for a non-sched that didn't offer much in the way of reciprical benefits, and at other times I've worked for industry-leaders. Right now I work for ATA, which is very jumpseat friendly. The ironic part is that I personally fly the L1011, so I can't offer reciprical jumpseats, although my company does. Also, I'm an FO...does that mean I should expect hostility if I try to jumpseat? After all, I can't personally approve a jumpseat request.

Jumpseating is real simple: You are polite at all times, you ask the Captain's permission to ride, you do what the FA's tell you to do and at all times comport yourself as a professional. When another pilot approaches you for a jumpseat..try to make it as pleasant an experience as possible. All this talk of using the jumpseat as a weapon is really depressing.

 

[flyndesk]

And I'd be willing to bet she had 350 hours when she got a King Air job.

600 hours when she got a regional airline job.

A total of 1500 hours when she got her first of three interviews with three different majors.

And finally got hired at NWA because she had 2000 hours and finally went and bought an ATP because she never made CA at the regional and had no PIC turbine."

Cal:

Blah, blah, blah. Go start a new thread if you want to complain about this. I think they have one going on The Regional board....

717:

I am amazed at the unprofessionalism of the NWA crew. Thank god for AirTran guys- multiple jumpseats, nice folks, etc. But did you really have to point out that f/o was a female? Does that mean the captain was a male? Who really cares?

 

[Prof. Joe Vee]

Ty Webb: You simultaneously denounce NWA for leaving your jumpseaters behind, then threaten to do the same to NWA pilots...Why would your leaving NWA pilots behind not be subject to "being pursued at the highest level right now, as it should be"? What's the difference between leaving your pilots behind for no good reason versus leaving their pilots behind for no good reason? Being pi$$ed off isn't a good reason to treat an innocent pilot wrongly.

"Ty" has a lot of latent anger that he seems more and more willing to act on. It is becoming a trend in which intervention is becoming a foregone conclusion.

Professor Joe Vee
Aerologist