Judge rules in favor of NW FA's

[atrdriver]

It's just a general observation. I wish the flight attendants well, but no more so than any other employee group such as gate agents, rampies, or for that matter the manager at the McDonalds in the concourse. I certainly wouldn't support them if they started pulling that CHAOS crap.

So what do you suggest? Just roll over to management and take whatever s%^t sandwich they serve? It's time someone stood up to incompetent management, maybe this is the time.

 

[kmox29]

Kmox- How are you?

Doing quite well! Check your PMs

 

[atrdriver]

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. That year of training is very expensive and is followed by at least a couple years of low-paid time building. Add to that the fact that very few pilots get hired at a major without a college degree.

On the other hand, just about anyone with a high school diploma is qualified to get hired as an FA.

So yeah, I'm kind of cynical about FA's risking the liquidation of my company with their strikes just because they want to be paid like a pilot. I hope they get as good a contract as they can, but not at the potential cost of my job.

Jeez genius. DO you really thing that NW couldn't hire a high school kid and train him as an FO if they really wanted to? And pay for it? And pay him whatever they wanted? If you really think that the NW FA plight has no effect on pilots you need to wake up.

 

[kmox29]

What should have been done?

You still don't know?

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I would think with all that brain power over there at Papa Redtail, you could have come up with something better than screwing your mechanics, screwing your regional pilots, and setting a nice low for the industry.

If you're still unsure, look at your FAs or the Mesaba pilots for starters...

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

If you're still unsure, look at your FAs or the Mesaba pilots for starters...

Don't forget XJ FAs and MXs, too.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

You still don't know?

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I would think with all that brain power over there at Papa Redtail, you could have come up with something better than screwing your mechanics, screwing your regional pilots, and setting a nice low for the industry.

If you're still unsure, look at your FAs or the Mesaba pilots for starters...

Yeah look at the NWA flight attendants, wait till you see what happens there.....afa will give concessions and in return the company will give them the Delta group as well. AFA has absolutely no intention of shutting it down. If you're so mad because compass exists I see no reason why big sky shouldn't be allowed to operate larger aircraft.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

YPF, why did NWALPA allow Compass to be created?

 

[Nindiri]

hehe Four consecutive posts. I think B727FA is mad at me.

 

[Dodge]

YPF, why did NWALPA allow Compass to be created?

I'll field this one for YPF. The senior 10 and 747 boys said, "screw the 9 pilots. I'm gonna take what I can get out of this hole and if it takes farming out all the 9 flying to the commuters, so be it."

Of course, the furloughed pilots will fly for compass at the ever impressive industry average CRJ wages. Nothing like getting hired at a major with the benefits and pay of a regional. That should help pilot recruitment in the future. Squadron buds will take a pass as will the 12 year regional guy at starting over at another regional. Maybe NWA will have a bridge program of some crap where they hire 300 hour San Juaners to man the positions.

All in all, Compass was an excellent decision for the NWA pilots. Not only did they give up more of their scope, they added another carrier to have to compete against when management comes around next time crying scope relief.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I'll field this one for YPF. The senior 10 and 747 boys said, "screw the 9 pilots. I'm gonna take what I can get out of this hole and if it takes farming out all the 9 flying to the commuters, so be it."

Of course, the furloughed pilots will fly for compass at the ever impressive industry average CRJ wages. Nothing like getting hired at a major with the benefits and pay of a regional. That should help pilot recruitment in the future. Squadron buds will take a pass as will the 12 year regional guy at starting over at another regional. Maybe NWA will have a bridge program of some crap where they hire 300 hour San Juaners to man the positions.

All in all, Compass was an excellent decision for the NWA pilots. Not only did they give up more of their scope, they added another carrier to have to compete against when management comes around next time crying scope relief.

The Sjet issue was handled by a junior A320 FO on the negotiating commitee, not the senior pilots. If you have seen the load factors your simply can't replace a 9 with a 76 seat jet with the current scope restrictions. Compass is simply to upgrade some current 50 seat routes or expand into new markets. I wouldn't worry about compass, it's at least 2 years away and is an all ERJ fleet. I'd be worried about those rates on those CRJ's NWA has up north, because they do exist.

 

[kmox29]

Yeah look at the NWA flight attendants, wait till you see what happens there.....

At least they're trying to fight...

If you're so mad because compass exists I see no reason why big sky shouldn't be allowed to operate larger aircraft.

I'm not in the industry anymore, so I'm really not so mad about Compass. However, I do still have a lot of friends at Mesaba, so I still care.

As for Big Sky...Mesaba pilots would never bend over so much as to allow Big Sky to fly larger aircraft or create another Big Sky. That is what you still don't get.

The NWA pilots who voted for that TA were cowards and could care less about what's going on "underneath" them.

 

[kmox29]

Compass is simply to upgrade some current 50 seat routes or expand into new markets. I wouldn't worry about compass, it's at least 2 years away and is an all ERJ fleet. I'd be worried about those rates on those CRJ's NWA has up north, because they do exist.

Yeah Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots...why are you so worried about Compass? I mean, it's just a regional we NWA pilots created to save our a$$ at your expense. I mean, how bad could adding another regional to the mix be?

 

[Hulk Hogan]

YPF, just last week (or two) you were looking for proof that these CRJ's existed. What evidence have you stumbled upon that indicates there are CRJ's? The Compass issue: there has to be more reason behind starting a new airline than just upgrading 50 seat routes to 76 seat routes. NWA could have very easily upgraded though routes with 9E or XJ. I don't think it really matters who came up with the idea but more importantly who allowed it to be implemented and why. Next question: What is/was the purpose of Big Sky and why would Mair Holdings be interested?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

To keep the loss of scope from happening, the company wanted even bigger concessions. We would have taken less of a paycut had we allowed the scope relief to go up to 110 seats. The Sjet agreement was the middle ground. The 76 seat number was an industry standard plus a competitive edge given in favor of the company for job security. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND that airlines out there have lower cost structures and if we don't meet or beat, we lose our jobs and go back to square one? How can you ask a senior pilot to give up a 6 figure job so he can save a job that pays mcdonalds wages?

9E and XJ could easily get the scope and wages they wanted, but instead 9E is just waiting for XJ to fold or vice versa. Maybe you should also know that it is 9E who is keeping the compass certificate alive. 9E and XJ should walk out tomorrow in a demand for protection against compass or skywest. Do they.....Nope.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

YPF, just last week (or two) you were looking for proof that these CRJ's existed. What evidence have you stumbled upon that indicates there are CRJ's? The Compass issue: there has to be more reason behind starting a new airline than just upgrading 50 seat routes to 76 seat routes. NWA could have very easily upgraded though routes with 9E or XJ. I don't think it really matters who came up with the idea but more importantly who allowed it to be implemented and why. Next question: What is/was the purpose of Big Sky and why would Mair Holdings be interested?

I went looking and I found that information. Compass may be operated under the mainline banner instead of the airlink banner. Big Sky is used as leverage also it makes MAIR look like more of a holdings company than a shell company.

 

[DrewBlows]

How can you ask a senior pilot to give up a 6 figure job so he can save a job that pays mcdonalds wages?

Because it's the right thing to do. I'd like to steal from other people too, it would be very lucrative. I couldn't live with myself knowing that I screwed a whole lot of people and left them with little hope of career advancement. But that's just me.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Because it's the right thing to do. I'd like to steal from other people too, it would be very lucrative. I couldn't live with myself knowing that I screwed a whole lot of people and left them with little hope of career advancement. But that's just me.

What has been stolen? What has been done wrong? Everyone keeps saying it is the fault of mainline pilots yet nobody gives an explanation for their statements.

 

[flyboyike]

Yeah Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots...why are you so worried about Compass? I mean, it's just a regional we NWA pilots created to save our a$$ at your expense. I mean, how bad could adding another regional to the mix be?

I'm not worried, I don't think Compass will ever truly happen.

 

[kmox29]

9E and XJ should walk out tomorrow in a demand for protection against compass or skywest. Do they.....Nope.

YOU created Compass to save your own a$$. Now Mesaba and Pinnacle are supposed to throw themselves under the bus to stop the watering down of the regionals?

I can't believe the arrogance of your statement.

 

[kmox29]

I'm not worried, I don't think Compass will ever truly happen.

I hope is doesn't. But the fact that it is a possibility is the result of your union brothers at NWA.

If it does happen, just remember they "had" to do it, it's "not their fault". It's just "the direction the industry is going" and they didn't want to put up a fight... uke:

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I went looking and I found that information.

Sooooooo the information would be . . . ?

 

[DrewBlows]

What has been stolen? What has been done wrong? Everyone keeps saying it is the fault of mainline pilots yet nobody gives an explanation for their statements.

Pinnacle and Mesaba aside, NWA pilots threw their junior pilots under the bus by allowing the creation of an alter-ego company. If I need to expain why this is not a good thing you haven't been paying attention to the industry. Ask a Mid-Atlantic pilot how that deal worked out for them.

This is not exclusive to the NWA pilot group, it's a union thing. Time and time again when a union faces adversity, it throws it's junior members under the bus. What if the opposite happened? For instance, how would the senior pilots at NWA (or any company) feel if the junior pilots pushed for a captains logevity cap of 10 years in exchange for first officer pay increases? They would be pissed off, and rightfully so. Then you would have a divided pilot group and would therefor lose bargaining power. This is not good for anyone involved, and it's not good for a lot of people who aren't directly involved.

 

[FOrever85]

To keep the loss of scope from happening, the company wanted even bigger concessions. We would have taken less of a paycut had we allowed the scope relief to go up to 110 seats. The Sjet agreement was the middle ground. The 76 seat number was an industry standard plus a competitive edge given in favor of the company for job security. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND that airlines out there have lower cost structures and if we don't meet or beat, we lose our jobs and go back to square one? How can you ask a senior pilot to give up a 6 figure job so he can save a job that pays mcdonalds wages?

9E and XJ could easily get the scope and wages they wanted, but instead 9E is just waiting for XJ to fold or vice versa. Maybe you should also know that it is 9E who is keeping the compass certificate alive. 9E and XJ should walk out tomorrow in a demand for protection against compass or skywest. Do they.....Nope.

So by your rational, if they asked for 220 seats and below, you would have given them 110 seats? because hey, it's the middle ground.

And that last paragraph proves you have no f%^ing idea what you are talking about.

A) Mesaba did get scope, and it was far from easy.
B) 9E isn't keeping the compass certificate alive (It is ex-indy management using one of two xj crj's. There isn't a single 9E person involved)
C) There are more than a couple legal problems with the last sentence, that make it impossible.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

So by your rational, if they asked for 220 seats and below, you would have given them 110 seats? because hey, it's the middle ground.

And that last paragraph proves you have no f%^ing idea what you are talking about.

A) Mesaba did get scope, and it was far from easy.
B) 9E isn't keeping the compass certificate alive (It is ex-indy management using one of two xj crj's. There isn't a single 9E person involved)
C) There are more than a couple legal problems with the last sentence, that make it impossible.

That is correct you are in a position of no leverage, that is your fault not the mainline pilots. I just think it is funny when you guys claim compass was us throwing you under the bus. Becuase somehow we owe you that flying. I remember the head of your union at one of those meetings a few years back claiming that all scope relief was owed to his flying group. You guys are not NWA pilots, when you guys take a stand to become them then you arguement is valid. Until then you work for a contract company subject to the lowest bidder.

 

[kmox29]

You guys are not NWA pilots...

Because if you were, you'd do anything to screw you fellow pilot, claim you "had" to do it because it was "middle ground", and then ask your regional brothers to fight to the death to clean up your mess.

Yup, Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have a lot to learn.

 

[XJohXJ]

That is correct you are in a position of no leverage, that is your fault not the mainline pilots. I just think it is funny when you guys claim compass was us throwing you under the bus. Becuase somehow we owe you that flying. I remember the head of your union at one of those meetings a few years back claiming that all scope relief was owed to his flying group. You guys are not NWA pilots, when you guys take a stand to become them then you arguement is valid. Until then you work for a contract company subject to the lowest bidder.

Driving home the fact that ALPA is NOT a union, and regional pilots should not be part of ALPA at all, because ALPA ONLY CARES ABOUT THE MAJORS, and will inflict any amount of rotten sh*t onto the regional pilots, 'cause they're not real pilots anyway...

 

[XJohXJ]

But really, the biggest issue which YPF and so many others miss is that anything which strengthens one pilot group brings strength to ALL pilot groups. Conversly, anything which weakens one pilot group weakens all pilot groups. Divide and conquer. Management points: 1. Pilots' points: 0.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Here's a question....What would be the starting salary for a Captain at mesaba if NWA charged .20 cents a mile on XJ and gave the addition revenue to the pilots. A 1000 mile trip would cost $255.4 per seat no matter where you sit on the aircraft. I'll give you a hint it's a six figure number. This will give you a hint as why we are at where we are at today.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

Don't worry, if you don't agree with YPF now in the next thread he will be arguing the oposite side of this argument.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Say Again

I went looking and I found that information.

Again, what information did you find?