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Joe's confident

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Cactus73 said:
6. People are talking as if Air Tran is in so much better financial shape compared to AWA. Last time I looked both airlines are losing money. Both have about the same relative cash positions.
You have got to be kidding. Do a little research before you post, would you?

Since 2000, AirTran has made $155 Mil, AWA has lost $573 million.

AirTran has $808 mil in assets, only $506 mil in liabilities, or a net value of $302 million,

AWA has assets of $1.627 B and liabilities of $1.488 B for a net value of $139 mil.

I would not compare the financials of these two companies, not by a long shot. Also, AirTran may have long-term obligations to buy 737's, the purchase price is extremely low, and the interest rate is ridiculously low. If we couldn;t make money with them, I am sure we could either sell them or lease them out and still be ahead, but I think we'll be keeping them plenty busy ourselves, thank you very much.
http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/financials.asp?symb=aai&siteid=yhoo&dist=mktwqn
 
Just for grins, here's what Holly has to say. Personally I think Joe is getting desperate with his latest press releases (1000th pilot, confident, etc.).


Why America West May Not Be Crazy

If things go according to plan, America West will also place a bid for ATA on Friday. But unlike the bid from AirTran, which does not include any of ATA's employees, or the bid from Southwest, which appears now to be a type of marketing/codeshare set-up that includes gates, but allows a portion of ATA to remain in business, America West's deal will be for the whole enchilada.

Okay, we all know the situation. Why would America West, which is struggling with high fuel prices and falling earnings, now want to take a chance on taking over an airline that has a solid reputation for not making money?

Okay, first of all, why hasn't ATA made money at Midway? I think it is because, as we have written here many times in the past, it does not seem the airline knows how to make money -- period. They manage for load factor for one thing. I have always wondered if they even know the meaning of the words, "revenue optimization."

As a result, I think the revenue minds at America West could make improvement here.

Secondly, we know AWA has to grow. On this point, if you take both fleets (AWA and ATA) and re-gauge AWA's system and ATA's, guess what? I think that you end up with a company where aircraft size is matched to demand pretty closely -- which could improve revenue opportunities. In addition, AWA currently has no large aircraft orders in place -- a position that would allow AWA to take on the additional aircraft from ATA without having to worry about additional future aircraft coming into the pipeline.

We all know ATA's fleet is too large for the markets they serve. Heck, they know it..

As for hub size, ATA's 14 gates at Midway have been cited as being "too many" for AWA to handle effectively. But, if you look at the size of AWA, and look at the size of the airline's hubs at both Las Vegas and Phoenix, operating the 14 gates at Midway doesn't look particularly daunting. Remember too that AWA is a network carrier, not a point-to-point carrier. As a result, this too gives the airline more need for the 14 gates. Fewer than 14 gates, and the Midway operation might not be large enough to be profitable.

Then there is the ETOPS argument that we have already talked about here. ATA's ETOPS equipment would allow AWA to implement overwater flying (Hawaii in particular) sooner than AWA can do it on its own.

While AWA is currently working on their ETOPS certifications, from what I understsand, the airline is still another year away from completion of the process.

But what about the thorny problems of employee integration, or, "When has a merger ever worked?"

We put that question to one analyst last week who, although he is somewhat skeptical of the numbers side at this stage, having not seen any details, clearly has no reservations about the airline's ability to integrate two work forces, as he said, "I think America West has the culture in place, and has the management smarts to pull this kind of deal off in terms of employee integration. But not every airline could."

Another person close to the airline's bid said to me in an email this week:

"It's been a long hard road to get past the glamour era of Howard Hughes' TWA, Rickenbacker's Eastern, Trippe's Pan Am.We all still hear stories about those glorious Ozark Airlines' wine and cheese baskets. But you know what? Those days are gone. It's a different ballgame now. Those old romantic guys probably never considered planes flying into buildings, bloated cost structures, inefficient mainframe systems, proposed legislation to improve customer service, etc. If the current environment tells us anything, it's that airlines can stop flying (albeit a slow, painful death), airline employees are sometimes forced to find lives beyond this industry or take very steep pay cuts and make correlated lifestyle changes.

I would think that there will be a somewhat different approach to a combined carrier with longer term job security than perhaps either airline could offer on its own. Now of course you're going to have a lot of chest pounding and rhetoric, but if you can see past that and manage to that, I think AWA management can handle the transition."

Another person at America West whom I asked about the deal, and to whom I suggested that AWA didn't seem in the best of financial straits, said, "Yes, but the bulk of our problems right now are fuel based. However, just sitting still and saying, "It will get better if we just click our heels together three times, fuel goes down, capacity comes out, and pigs fly" isn't the answer either."

Could AWA pull a deal like this off? Are there any certainties in this business? No, but after taking a look at several of my key complaints of the past few months a bit more closely this last week, I have to admit -- I don't think Doug Parker and the folks in Phoenix have been smoking strange substances anymore. I can now see the method in the madness more clearly. I now understand why AWA seems convinced it can make the deal work.
 
Cactus73 said: "They would have to figure out how to shed the L1011 charter side of the business and get someone to step-up to the plate and continue to fill contractual terms with the government"

Get rid of the charter?? No way. The military charter part of the company is making money, even with those L-10s. Now, if you meant get rid of the L-10s and put some more reliable, more fuel efficient airplanes in there (767, A-330/340) then I would agree with you.
 
Who is Holly, and what has she been smoking?

Her "story" is all emotions and feelings, and no facts . . . where did you find this, in "People" magazine?

It even sounds like she has SWA and AirTran confused- it is AirTran who started referring to their bid as a "business partnership", not SWA.

I'm not sure why you even bothered to cut and paste anything from such a ridiculous source.
 
Ty Webb said:
Who is Holly, and what has she been smoking?

Her "story" is all emotions and feelings, and no facts . . . where did you find this, in "People" magazine?

It even sounds like she has SWA and AirTran confused- it is AirTran who started referring to their bid as a "business partnership", not SWA.

I'm not sure why you even bothered to cut and paste anything from such a ridiculous source.

Ty Webb,

Holly is Holly Hedgeman. You told me to do a little research before posting? Maybe you should. Holly is one of the most respected and sought after financial airline gurus. She runs the highly successful planebusiness.com web site. But of course, you already knew this because of the extensive research you do before posting.

How do you know what SWA is going to offer when you said she is confused? Holly has a lot of insider sources and senior contacts at almost every airline.

When I said AWA and AAI have similar financials I wasn't talking about debt. One company, AWA has been around since 1983, or course we have bigger liability issues. Up until this quarter, AWA made a profit for the last five. AAI is losing money right now. Fuel prices are hurting all of us. There are a lot of similarities in the two companies situations. You can say what you want about the 737 order but the fact is that they are coming and they aren't all going to ATL. That means AAI needs a home for them. They may be cheap but they aren't free. They need to fly and Air Tran is looking to develop new markets. I'm not slaming Air Tran as you seem to think. I think they are a great company with a good plan. I'm just making an observation that they need a place to put some new airplanes and MDW seemed to be worth $87 million to your CEO.

Research? Holly? Ridiculous source?

Get real!
 
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Pickle said:
Cactus73 said: "They would have to figure out how to shed the L1011 charter side of the business and get someone to step-up to the plate and continue to fill contractual terms with the government"

Get rid of the charter?? No way. The military charter part of the company is making money, even with those L-10s. Now, if you meant get rid of the L-10s and put some more reliable, more fuel efficient airplanes in there (767, A-330/340) then I would agree with you.

At our town hall meetings, Parker has been saying that he doesn't know much about the charter business and didn't think it would be part of any ATA offer. Who knows what will be in the offer, if there is an offer.
 
I think one of the most missed points is Mr. M. He ownes most of ATA and his ego or desire to run his company as he see's fit will go a long way with the Judge. Unless I am wrong ATA is still a private company, and that carries a lot of weight in court, even during a CH11 ruling.
 
FLB717 said: "Unless I am wrong ATA is still a private company, and that carries a lot of weight in court, even during a CH11 ruling."

ATA is a publicly traded company, has been since 1993, but George M. owns the majority of the shares. ATAHQ is the ticker symbol.

You are correct about his ego. That is why he likes the AirTran deal so much.... He gets to keep playing "airline owner" with what is left over in IND.

But I do not think that his ego or his owning the majority of the stock will have any sway voer the judge and his ruling. I am hoping the judge does what is best for ALL the creditors, secured and unsecured (employees are unsecured creditors).

My 2 cents is that I am not in favor of the AirTran deal AS IT STANDS, but of course it is the only deal actually on the table right now.

I have lost faith in the current management of this company. I don't think I am the only one.
 
Ty Webb said:
Who is Holly, and what has she been smoking?

Her "story" is all emotions and feelings, and no facts . . . where did you find this, in "People" magazine?

It even sounds like she has SWA and AirTran confused- it is AirTran who started referring to their bid as a "business partnership", not SWA.

I'm not sure why you even bothered to cut and paste anything from such a ridiculous source.

Ty Webb,

Just to add more from your well researched post. This is from the Financial Times. The "People magazine" of Wall Street?

"Southwest, by contrast, could - as the best financed airline - easily outspend its rivals. It is expected to make a large cash offer for about five of the Midway gates, alongside a possible $50m-$75m in DIP financing to prop up ATA.

In a significant strategic departure, Southwest is also considering offering a code-sharing relationship with ATA, which would be extremely valuable for the bankrupt company, according to several people involved in the talks. The unusually aggressive move is a reflection of the new management team at Southwest, also evident in its expansion plans at Philadelphia."
 
Cactus73 said:
Ty Webb,

Holly is Holly Hedgeman. You told me to do a little research before posting? Maybe you should. Holly is one of the most respected and sought after financial airline gurus.
Her article was long on emotion, short on facts. If that's typical of her "work", then I wouldn't put too much into it.


Up until this quarter, AWA made a profit for the last five. AAI is losing money right now.
More crap. According to the financials posted on CBS Marketwatch, AWA had two years with small profits, and two years with huge losses, for a total loss over those years of well over $570 million. See for yourself:

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/financials.asp?symb=awa&siteid=yhoo&dist=mktwqn

AirTran posted a loss of $10 million in the last quarter, after FL had an unprecedented four hurricanes and oil hit $50 a barrel- go figure. It was our first loss in 10 quarters, during which time, we retired over $300 million in debt and doubled our cash postion.

If you think that those two track records or balance sheets are even in the same ballpark, you've been reading too much Holly.

You have yourself a nice one, huh?
 
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My opinion.

AirTran is out of this deal. AirTran made CH11 and the bidding war possible and they will be compensated appropriately. Thankyou!

SWA is playing as the spoiler, the question remains, how bad do they want the MDW gates? They have the cash and respect to make it happen if they want to make it happen. SWA is finding out like AirTran that in order to seal the deal they will either have to put up a lot more cash than the gates are worth or plan on dating ATA for a some period of time.

AWA is the only airline that really needs this deal. AWA has been organizing this deal for awhile now and they are much more prepared. We will see more news tommorrow, our unions will release news along with possible TAs in the very near future. AWA, by all accounts, have been extremely cordial and have earned the respect of all ATA employees I have spoken with.

AWA is playing hard, they are lining up the creditors, this is the deal I would put my money on. SWA just doesn't need this deal and is obviously going to dump our body in the river after they have had there way with us.

Business is brutal.

There are other players waiting to make a play. JetBlue is only making news so that the world won't forget them, they can't stand not seeing their name in every airline press release, as always a brilliant PR machine. Other financial institutions have also shown some interest but my money is still on AWA.

The real loser is George Mikelsons. We will all move on but George can't run away from his really bad management style and ungracefull death.

This really is a shame.

And then I may be wrong on every account.
 
You know Ty, you are one abrasive summummabeach....Let's face it ,Bubba,
I don't care what LCC you fly for , the only one of us that will be a competitive force in the industry once the legacy carriers get ther costs in line will be SWA.
The rest of us will be holding hands on the unemployment line. There is no way
Air Tran can compete with a slimmed down Delta should their restructuring be sucessful. The passenger looking to connect overseas in ATL will chose them over you guys everytime, especially if the price is the same.Same could be said for AWA should MDW become a reality for them .You just watch United kick their a$$ with their flights of ORD. Sure, you carved out a nice niche for yourself,but with all due respect,your outfit, just like all the other Southwest-wannabes out there, is nothing more than a regional airline on steroids.


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
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C8 Ops

For what it's worth Chico is bidding for our Jan. pairings this week and it's all geared for the airtran takeover. Feeding new cities out of IND and an airtran package out of MDW.

Cant wait to see how it all really turns out!!!!

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCYA
 
JaX2Mdw4ASaab said:
For what it's worth Chico is bidding for our Jan. pairings this week and it's all geared for the airtran takeover.
You are non-union so the company can dump your schedules as they see fit. ATA Mainline is getting two different bid packages because they do not know which scenario will play out yet.
 
Cactus73 said:
At our town hall meetings, Parker has been saying that he doesn't know much about the charter business and didn't think it would be part of any ATA offer. Who knows what will be in the offer, if there is an offer.
Even many inside ATA don't know much about charter, and in fact have been force fed a very inaccurate picture of that side of the company. Some ridicule and laugh at the L-1011 -a - saur. This appears to have come from the management team that was brought in to run the place while George retired (the Tague regime).

Once the financial goings got really rough in the last 18 months, George stepped back in (too late) and discovered what many of his people had been trying to tell him and anyone else that would listen : ATA was nearly printing money with the lucrative military charter business while the sked service side was burning through it faster than than they could borrow it. The margins in ad-hoc widebody charter is very, very good, and L-1011's, like DC-10's have certain attributes that make them ideal for the job. Tague and his clan didn't understand that, and now we have 5 remaining L-1011's from the 22 we had a few years ago.

It recently (finally) took a directive straight from George to set up a fully independent division manager for charter (who understood the business and the operation). Only now is the full scale and scope being understood of how badly the crown jewel of profitability within the comapny was basically internally scuttled and sabotaged by those who didn't understand it. It went so far as having resources and funds diverted from charter operations to cover losses elsewhere, and wildly inaccurate info being passed up the line to decision makers (intentionally, it looks).

Granted - the sked service side was very profitable for a short bit, but it was a model set up to be able to do that only in the best of overall economic times. Charter had been profitable through thick and thin. FWIW - I think the sked service was actually a really good product and was only unsuccessful because of a couple of key mgmt blunders - ordering too large of a/c and not realizing how important it was to build a recognizable brand name early on (nice airplane - I love this AirTran place!). The people and guts of it operations below the very top layer were excellent IMHO.

767's are an imperfect, but the least imperfect solution to replace the L-1011's when their inevitable useful lives end. The problem is that any twin engine aircraft short of a 777 (too high fixed cost) can't come close to physically doing what a long range, 3 engine aircraft can in terms of weight, bulk, and lack of ETOPS restrictions. That's why old, low fixed cost L-10's, DC-10's, etc. are solid moneymakers in charter.

One of the most monumentally shortsighted decisions I think I can recall was to not heavy check a group of our L-10's (and then lose the money that could have reversed that decision) because "this new military entanglement won't last more than 6 months to a year".......... I wonder what they think now that Omni and World have added so many new charter widebodies and are still turning away business (2 years later with no end in sight).

Anyway, I could understand a much larger company (AWA) deciding that even if it is wildly profitable on a margin basis, it doesn't strateically fit with the resoursces available to run it. It does require it's own nimble, out-of-the-box management and support resources and that can be difficult to blend with sked service. Make no mistake however - charter saved ATA's bacon many times in the past, and it greatly forestalled the inevitable this time.....and remains the only solidly profitable high margin business in the house. It could be a he** of an opportunity for the right buyer.

Honestly, I just hope something comes out of this that keeps as many of us employed as possible..... and I hope noone is left out to rot, not even us charter pukes.

Win one for the Zipper !
 
Ty Webb said:
Her article was long on emotion, short on facts. If that's typical of her "work", then I wouldn't put too much into it.



More crap. According to the financials posted on CBS Marketwatch, AWA had two years with small profits, and two years with huge losses, for a total loss over those years of well over $570 million. See for yourself:

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/financials.asp?symb=awa&siteid=yhoo&dist=mktwqn

AirTran posted a loss of $10 million in the last quarter, after FL had an unprecedented four hurricanes and oil hit $50 a barrel- go figure. It was our first loss in 10 quarters, during which time, we retired over $300 million in debt and doubled our cash postion.

If you think that those two track records or balance sheets are even in the same ballpark, you've been reading too much Holly.

You have yourself a nice one, huh?


Ty Webb,

Besides being one cocky SOB, you discount Holly when most of the airline CEO's in this business subscribe to her service and read what she has to say.
She gave our CEO, Doug Parker, an award last year that he graciously accepted. Her articles are meant to have humor and emotion so pilots and street people such as my self can try to understand this crazy business.

She is usually right too. She predicted the UAL BK before 9/11.

You can go on and on about your beloved Air Tran. I actually think they are a good airline too. I think my airline is good and if it wasn't for fuel prices would show a profit too.

If you read your SEC filing for the last quarter, AAI took tax credits that AWA didn't, making their respective losses about the same. But of course your CBS Market Watch research tells you all of this.


I want the best for the AWA pilots and employees. It's that simple. If that saves the jobs of the majority of the ATA pilots and FA's, I'll sleep even better at night.

What about you?
 
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The Holly Lama . . . . . all-knowing. Gunga-galunga

:cool:
Cactus73 said:
Ty Webb,

Besides being one cocky SOB, you discount Holly when most of the airline CEO's in this business subscribe to her service and read what she has to say.
Pardon me, Sparky, but many of the current airline CEO's couldn't manage a Starbuck's- perhaps they have been buying into her "research", hmmm?

If you want to talk predictions- everyone knew that UAL was headed for BK. The contract was unsustainable- it required a LF in excess of 92% percent even at those heady ticket prices.

Speaking of predictions- I said in this forum 2 years ago that if Leo Mullin continued on his path of losing billions going after "marketshare" that it would result in his getting canned. Did Holly do so as well?

I want the best for the AWA pilots and employees. It's that simple. If that saves the jobs of the majority of the ATA pilots and FA's, I'll sleep even better at night.

What about you?
The ATA deal does not improve things for me personally- it makes them worse. If we were to end up with a MDW 737 base, it would go extremely junior, and then guess who would suddenly have a 2-leg commute to work. No thanks.:rolleyes:

As far as I am concerned, the best deal for the ATA employees sounds good, but I am not sure that having their wagon hitched to AWA might not be the best, either. Maybe it'll be an albatross that takes both of you down . . . ask Holly. . . . . the Holly Lama . . . all-knowing . . . . flowing robes . . . .:rolleyes:
 
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Ty Webb said:
As far as I am concerned, the best deal for the ATA employees sounds good, but I am not sure that having their wagon hitched to AWA might not be the best, either.
I told myself I was not going to get involved in this web stuff but.....at least AWA is offering JOBS. They realize they have a highly motivated, dependable professional group of aviatiors and support staff available. Even during these times ATA has finished in the top 4 of DOT reporting airlines for on time and we were #1 in Sept.

Not too bad for a bunch of people under the stress they are. It's truly a shame that our management team mismanaged such a great workforce....

WE COULD HAVE BEEN A CONTENDER!
 
Well as we all know now... It's not going to happen. The ATA/AWA thing anyway. Best of luck to all of you at ATA. I guess I was sorta hoping it would have worked out...

Andy
 
AWA mgm't has to learn that their "smoke and mirrors,now you see it now you don't " form of offers and financing just ain't gonna cut it in todays marketplace. Cash is king. Period.If they aren't prepared to put up,they should learn to shut up. Watch for them to become an even less significant force in the market place over the next several years as they try to keep up with the likes of an ever-expanding AirTran,SWA and Jet Blue.


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
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