Jobs with non-specific degrees

[pilotyip]

Irresponsible fits both ways

You also continue to dispense irresponsible advice, Bobby, about going to college to a group that does not want to go to college. To pursue a degree even if all the guy wants to do is fly airplanes is bad advice. The non-degreed pilot can make a decent living in the $100K/yr range by the time he is 30 years old. The pilot who follows this route will also not have a mountain of debt, probably own a home and a couple of cars. You have also hedged your bet, by stating something beyond high school is part of a degree. I have interviewed a few in that category, who after 1 to 3 years quit college because of expenses, boredom, or other reasons and started flying airplanes and building their career. As I have said before almost everyone has degree these days, and I have nothing against a degree. But as Avbug and I have supported you do not have to go to college to be a success.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Irresponsible" advice?

You also continue to dispense irresponsible advice, Bobby, about going to college to a group that does not want to go to college. To pursue a degree even if all the guy wants to do is fly airplanes is bad advice.

Who said they do not want to go to college? I would submit that they would be perfectly happy to go but for your anti-degree message and its uncertain promises. And, since when is getting education bad advice?

You continue to avoid the point that one needs credentials to get the jobs that lead to "TJ PIC." I do not disagree that "TJ PIC" gets you the job, but, once more, credentials get you the job that gets you "TJ PIC."

The non-degreed pilot can make a decent living in the $100K/yr range by the time he is 30 years old.

Assuming, of course, that he/she can get the job. If his/her credentials are lacking, in any respect, and if the others in the applicant pool have better credentials, he/she will not be hired. Once more, I submit that unless he/she is incredibility lucky, such as your 20-year-old who fell into his Metro job, that without credentials such jobs will be unattainable - especially in this day with a major pilot glut around.

You have also hedged your bet, by stating something beyond high school is part of a degree.

I will stake my bet on some college v. none, anytime.

Do you remember the "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots" column in the old Career Pilot magazine? To refresh your memory, it listed FAPA members whom airlines had hired recently. The column listed their qualifications and credentials. Nearly all had a degree, or more, or some college. Not one that I can recall had high school only. You still have not responded to my point about whether the Southwest, jetBlue, Airtran pilots you mentioned above had high school only when they were hired.

[A]s Avbug and I have supported you do not have to go to college to be a success.

Do I support the notion that an individual, even a pilot, can succeed without a college degree?

Without hesitation, an unequivocal yes. I do.

Do I recommend it?

I do not.

(emphasis added)

. . . . is Avbug's comment in context.

Your anti-degree advice is irresponsible, and misleading, Yip, because (1) if it were followed it would more likely than not lead to a dead-end. There is at least one pilot on this board, and at least one pilot I know, who have "TJ PIC" but for no degree cannot cannot advance. Without a doubt, there have been, there are and there will be others; (2)

You also continue to dispense irresponsible advice, Bobby, about going to college to a group that does not want to go to college.

Is that an absolute? How do you know for sure that this entire collective does not want to go to college? Some just might, and to advise against it on your say-so is irresponsible; finally, (3) you abuse your position as a hirer of pilots to push your unsound advice.

I would agree that college is unwise for a great many people. But not to go to college according to your dicta would, too, be unwise.

PS-Two more points.

Sometimes, "needs" and "shoulds" trump "do not wants." Therein lies one difference between my "irresponsible" advice and Yip's.

I know all about irresponsible advice about not going to college, and the difference between "do not want-to," "should" and "need-to." I was an indifferent student in high school. I did not like school or studying, thought most of it was boring and irrelevant, and, at bottom, probably did not really want to go to college. In other words, I lacked passion for school. I would submit that there are plenty of kids out there who are the same.

I never really had a specific vocation in mind (aviation was out of the question because there weren't that many opportunities in the late sixties and I understood myself to be ineligible because of vision). However, I was smart enough to realize that a degree would be essential to my success in life by its own virtue. Therefore, while, at bottom, I might not have "wanted to" go to college I realized I "should" and "needed-to." To give in to "not wanting to go to college" would have been irresponsible, and very stupid.

I was finally happy to go to college, and while I remained an indifferent student, I still learned, and graduated on time, unlike many of my classmates. College provided a foundation for me and led me to my first vocation and, indirectly, to aviation. Many years later, my degree enabled me to enter paralegal school, where, in law, I finally used my college training. In the interim, it permitted me to check off that airline application box about "college."

Further to that, and this is really the crux of this entire exercise (I credit someone else here for raising this point):

Interviewer: Do you have a college degree?

Degreed pilot: Yes.

Interviewer: Excellent. Okay. So, why do you want to work for our airline? etc.

versus,

Interviewer: Do you have a college degree?

Non-degreed pilot: No.

Interviewer: Why not? Why didn't you go to college?

Non-degreed pilot: Ummmm, uhhhh, errr . . . .

So, is recommending college to those who might not "want" to go still irresponsible advice, Yip?

(Sorry for the essay, but some things needed to be said)

 

[pilotyip]

The other end of the interview

Bobby, Bobby, we love this don't we. You paint me as the anti-college devil. Nothing could be further from the truth, going straight to college will increase your chances of success in almost every field, the harder the subject matter and the bigger the name of school the better will be the chance of succeeding. And the country will be better for your effort. However since college has nothing to do with flying an airplane. There is nothing that can not be learned at the local FBO. For a pilot the most important thing to do is start flying early, and that is all I am recommending. Along with Avbug, I support if you do want to be totally rounded, do an on-line degree while flying and then you can apply to even the 2 airlines presently hiring that make the degree a show stopper. Here is a different slant on your interview scenario.

Interviewer: Do you have a college degree?

Non-degreed pilot: No.

Interviewer: Why not? Why didn't you go to college?

Non-degreed pilot: Well I did go to college for one year on a NROTC scholarship, but I loved flying so much I wanted to start my career as soon as possible. I joined the Army and became a helo pilot and after flying helos for three years I transitioned to the C-12 fixed wing program where I have been flying for 4 years. I was made a company check airman. I graduated with honors from both helo and fixed wing programs. Now I would like to provide a little more stability to my growing family than I can get in the Army and that is why I want to fly for ABC airline.

This pilot was offered jobs at every place he interviewed, ahead of the degreed pilot he was competing with. Because he had a solid path in pursuit of his career goal and the interviewer saw that in his answer. The intervieweer did not let a piece of paper stand in the way of hiring a well qualifed applicant.

So, is recommending college to those who might not "want" to go still irresponsible advice. Absolutely not, the path to success is not paved in concrete in one direction and there are many ways to reach that goal. You have your view and I have mine, that is what makes America great.

 

[bobbysamd]

Irresponsible advice v. Irresponsible advice

You paint me as the anti-college devil . . . .

Not as such. Just a disseminator of irresponsible advice.

[C]ollege has nothing to do with flying an airplane. . . . .

I would like to argue that anything that hones one's ability to think, such as college, has everything to do with flying airplanes, but I won't at this time. In this instance, going to college, though, has everything to do with being as well-positioned as possible for getting the job.

I support if you do want to be totally rounded, do an on-line degree while flying . . . .

Here again, fine, but much, much easier said than done for most people after they start working. Think about it. Online degrees are nothing more than the modern version of the old-fashioned correspondence courses. Did you not take a couple of those while in the Navy? Weren't they a chore to finish?

Non-degreed pilot: Well I did go to college for one year on a NROTC scholarship, but I loved flying so much I wanted to start my career as soon as possible. I joined the Army and became a helo pilot and after flying helos for three years I transitioned to the C-12 fixed wing program where I have been flying for 4 years. I was made a company check airman. I graduated with honors from both helo and fixed wing programs. Now I would like to provide a little more stability to my growing family than I can get in the Army and that is why I want to fly for ABC airline.

This pilot was offered jobs at every place he interviewed, ahead of the degreed pilot he was competing with . . . .

Note that your example still went to college for a time. Not to mention that this individual possessed the military pilot trump card - which gave this pilot an automatic, built-in advantage over civilian-only pilots - and rendering your comparison invalid. I stand by my interview example, above.

You still have not responded to the question, above, about those who only have high school.

So, is recommending college to those who might not "want" to go still irresponsible advice . . . .

Not when it comes to common sense, practicality and pragmatism. Being as well-positioned as possible to get the job. Here again, speaking from personal experience, it may be necessary to forego "wanting" and "not wanting" in favor of "should," "must," "have to," "recommended" and "need-to."

You argue that advising college for someone who just wants to fly airplanes is irresponsible. Perhaps - if someone wants to end his/her career barely better than how it began, if it even goes that far. Most people want better and the best possible, which, in a competitive industry, necessitates better and the best possible credentials. So, if it takes college to achieve that goal, which, I submit, it does, saying that college is not needed and/or advising against it is irresponsible advice. Moreover, advising against college to someone who is otherwise set to attend, and raising doubts in his/her mind, is, similarly, irresponsible.

 

[Clyde]

Non-specific degrees

Although a degree is not required, a career in firefighting/EMS with a good city can be very rewarding. Of course, the training is very physical and quite intense, but if you succeed, you will have a good career. Some have degrees (of varying background) and some don't. All must be in top physical condition to begin training.

Degree is one thing, what you know how to do is another. If you have a degree, go add some skill(s) to your database of knowledge. Vocational schools offering education in automotive technology for example, can also lead to very good employment. More people are opting to put money into fixing what they have rather than purchase a new car and go into debt.

How about getting another degree? If you already have an undergraduate degree, you could get a masters degree. Or, if you choose to get another undergraduate degree, you would only have to take the required core courses for that major since you satisfied the electives with your previous one. Example, one has an aviation degree and decides to get a degree in accounting. Shouldn't take another 4 years. (shouldn't)

 

[learflyer]

Do I support the notion that an individual, even a pilot, can Instead, later, I turned to distance learning, which offers the symbology of being prostrate to the higher mind without the servitude. QUOTE]

WTFO?

 

[pilotyip]

NON-DEGREED? What does it mean?

You are changing the rules Bobby. Under my definition and I invented it first, a person with 119 credits hours in 120 program does not have a degree and you are changing this into one credit from a college makes you more competitive. What is it, you are either in possession of a degree or you are not in possession of a degree. My success model includes all those of the set who do not possess a 4 yr. degree. And we can not count successful pilots from non-degreed military programs because they have a trump card, what does that mean. BTW they did not have on-line courses, when I was in the Navy back in the 70’s; it was paper correspondence courses and I did them.

 

[bobbysamd]

College degree debate summary

Under my definition and I invented it first, a person with 119 credits hours in 120 program does not have a degree and you are changing this into one credit from a college makes you more competitive . . . .

Perhaps not one credit only, but some college is still better than only high school. But, still not as competitive as having the college degree.

And we can not count successful pilots from non-degreed military programs because they have a trump card, what does that mean.

Come on, Yip. You have been in this business longer than I was. You know that military pilots have a built-in advantage in airline hiring, whether or not they have degrees. And, you are the one who changed the "rules" in this discussion by using a military pilot in your interview example. I stand by my example.

Your position has been that pilots who only want to fly airplanes should start flying as soon as possible in favor of putting it off for college. That they should build time and, in particular, "TJ PIC" because it will get them the job. That it will do so ahead of those who are dawdling in college. Any reasonable person would understand "as soon as possible" on its plain meaning; meaning, for a young person, to start flying in or right of out high school and to forego college for the moment. Your best example for success is the 20-year-old pilot you hired who got hired, er, pardon me, lucked into that Metro job not long after he started flying. You had said that he could earn a degree online and, after flying for you, be well-positioned for your predicted 2007 so-called hiring boom.

I have opined that your position and advice that college and the degree are less important, if not completely unimportant, is irresponsible, especially when given to young people. I have advocated that whines of "not wanting" to go to college are less important than doing what is necessary to achieve a goal, i.e. going to college, and that encouraging otherwise is irresponsible. Understanding and recognizing the importance of flying early but not to the detriment of getting the degree, I advocate "get the degree, get it now, and get it out of the way." I advocate getting the degree out of the way is essential because of how I understand most people. Most people, once they start working, slip out of school mode and, although they recognize the importance of the degree, cannot return to school mode, cannot find time for school, or, are just too busy working to complete school, and, thus, will never complete college. I believe that a pilot needs the best credentials possible to compete in the hiring marketplace to get that coveted "TJ PIC." I have opined that you argue exception when citing your Metro kid as a success story, and that arguing exception is misleading and raises false hopes. Finally, yes, I have advocated that even some college is better than none, but, is still not as good as having the degree because it is the degree that makes one eligible for all jobs.

BTW they did not have on-line courses, when I was in the Navy back in the 70’s; it was paper correspondence courses and I did them.

To reiterate my point about distance learning, if you think about it, distance learning is simply a modern update of the old-fashioned correspondence courses. And, wasn't it a pain to find time to do them, which is my point about distance learning. See my comments about trying to return to school while working after being out of school, above.

 

[avbug]

WTFO?

Once again, in English? What part did you not understand?

 

[pilotyip]

Non-degree=successful

The military guy I used as an example exists and he does not have degree. He is successful by most measurements. My all-inclusive set of non-degreed pilots includes pilots of all backgrounds who do not possess a BA/BS. That is the definition of non-degreed. The Army Flight path from high school is an option for any HS grad that wants to fly. Should I not recommend that? What is even a better deal, hang around and they will send you to school for free.

 

[bobbysamd]

Apples v. oranges

The military guy I used as an example exists and he does not have degree. He is successful by most measurements. My all-inclusive set of non-degreed pilots includes pilots of all backgrounds who do not possess a BA/BS. That is the definition of non-degreed . . . .

Perhaps your definition. Military always provides a built-in advantage at the airlines, degree or not.

The Army Flight path from high school is an option for any HS grad that wants to fly. Should I not recommend that?

Why not? Bearing in mind that if you join doesn't mean you are guaranteed a pilot slot. Even with a recruiter's solemn assurances.

In any event, the understood comparison is civilian v. civilian, not miltary v. civilian. Once more, Yip, you of all people should know that at the airlines military pilots go to the head of the hiring line every time. Therefore, throwing in that factor invalidates your comparison.

 

[pilotyip]

You know what Bobby?

You sound like a lawyer some times.

 

[bobbysamd]

You sound like a lawyer some times.

I'm not sure exactly how to take that, but when you work for attorneys, write for them and are surrounded by law, as I have for ten years, and having argued FARs in a similar fashion beforehand, it rubs off.

 

[pilotyip]

Take it in the highest regard

No harm ment or intented.

 

[bobbysamd]

No harm ment or intented.

Thanks. I appreciate it greatly.