JOB w/Coke in KFTY..

[G4G5]

My former department dumped the whole Capt and Fo thing a while back. Why should some pilot who was hired one week after the other have to play FO to that guy for the next 25 years?

Once you get to 7-8000 their is little difference between that and a 11-13000 hour guy. So why make the jr guy play fo because he got here a couple of years later?

Their just isn't enough turn over in the good departments. Having a guy spend the better part of his career as an FO just isn't fair. It's builds anomosity among pilots, creates friction and a class structure that just isn't required.

The last fortune 5 company I worked for had a minimum time for CA then that was it. You were now considered a trip manager and you ran the trip. Next week/Day/Month whenever (mostly according to the scheduler) I would be the trip manager, and so on. We were all equal. It worked out great.

Another place I flew at had hard fo's and ca's but no real seniority list (only for vacations and time off) That was alright but a guy could still wind up 10 years+ as an Fo.

I also apent at time at a department that had an airline seniority structure. Of all three this was my least favorite. Guys who had 8 or 9 years were forever pissed at the guys who got in just 6 months prior to him.

At a major they can retire anywhere from 1 to 3 guys a day so even the most jr guy can expect to see the light someday. If you were the last guy in the door at a good department you could be spending your entire career as an FO and that's not right.

 

[G4G5]

Anyone with the inside scoop at Coke please feel free to email me. Thanks

 

[fokkerjet]

The last fortune 5 company I worked for had a minimum time for CA then that was it. You were now considered a trip manager and you ran the trip. Next week/Day/Month whenever (mostly according to the scheduler) I would be the trip manager, and so on. We were all equal. It worked out great.

So, if the scheduler didn't like you, there's a chance you would never be a "trip manager"? I like our system better.

We average about 5 pilots per airplane in our department, so flying with another captain rarely ever happens, except for international trips that require a third crewmember. When someone is hired into our department, they are hired with the understanding that they will probably sit for many years before upgrade. We don't usually hire older, high time pilots either, usually somewhat inexperienced pilots that mature during that period. Some pilots have left over the years, but mainly to go to the airlines, and those of us who have remained have no problem with the system because it 's a very fair system. Nobody jumps ahead of anybody and we all know our career progression because we all have a "seniority number" so to speak.

 

[G4G5]

Nope. The data was reviewed quaterly by the chief pilot and if one pilot did not get his fair share than an inquiry was made and rectified.

This way the scheduler has no choice but to treat all pilot equal and every pilot got his/her fair share. Needless to say I like this system best of all.

No games or politics.

It also allowed us to hire the most qualified for the position, you didn't need to worry about hiring a young guy because he was going to have to sit in the right seat for a while or hurting somones career expectations because we they were the last one in the door.

You hired the best and we all had the same expectatiions. Everyone pulled their equal weight or you felt it at review time. I haven't found a better system yet.

Back to Coke anyone know the number of pilots that they have?

 

[fokkerjet]

If your department operated more than 2 types of airplanes, how did your managers determine who flew what? What about vacations or days off, what if more people requested time off than what the schedule would permit, how was that handled? Any cutbacks, who was laid off first?

 

[G4G5]

If your department operated more than 2 types of airplanes, how did your managers determine who flew what?

G4G5
We had multiple types.
3 Falcon 2000's, a G4, a G5 and an S76B

Everyone flew two types and everyone flew the F2000. Guys hired with rotor wing ratings flew the S76 and the F2000. Everybody else flew the Gulfstream and the F2000. Their was no real big ego thing G4 vs G5 because you didn't get any extra compensation for the G5. Alot of guys hated the idea of a month in SAV for training and were happy to fly the 4. Other's who liked the Asia flying gravitated to the 5. Guys with small kids liked to be home at night and wanted no part of the 5.

Mgt didn't seem to have a problem because guys hired off the street were all high time well qualified captains and could eaisly fly any mission. Training was minimal because we didn't hire low timers and you never had to worry about who was paired with who. When job opening came up you could put in a recommendation for a buddy, if he met the qualifications. Then it just became a matter of hiring the person with the right personality. Most guys brought a wealth of experience and you could always learn something. I liked it alot better then, hire the low timer because their was no Senior chief training captain trying to form the nubie into his image of what the perfect company XYZ pilot should be.

Their was never any, " you need to fly the trip to RJAA because pilot ABC is not intl qualified" and he doesn't have enough time in blah blah blah and even though he wants to go and he is available, he has never been there and your not a check airman and since the check airman is on vacation, you now have to fly the trip(sorry about your day off)...It's a lot eaiser for a manager when he can place anyone of his pilots into an situtation comfortably and know the job will get done. It doesn't work that way in the other systems.
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What about vacations or days off, what if more people requested time off than what the schedule would permit, how was that handled?

G4G5
Vacations were handled by seniority. The biggest difference was since everyone got two weeks (jr pilot starting vac time) then the senior pilots could only choose two weeks and then the choice moved on in seniority. The department allowed 3 pilots off per holiday, on vac. Schedule permiting you could have more but that was determined based upon schedule as the holiday approached.

This worked out fine because Guys could have July 4th week off and X mas and the then next guy could have Presidents week and T giving. Or he could choose any combination until the 3 pilot off limit was met. Everyone always managed to grab a descent week. If you really needed a week yo could trade with another guy and since their were 3 guys to trade with, typically one of them would help you out.

The senior pilots with more then 2 weeks were able to use their remaining weeks after the most jr pilot picked his two weeks. Or they could save them until the month approached


Once the vacations were all taken care of the training for the year was set up and then you knew your basic schedule for the year

It was actually the fairest system I have seen.
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Any cutbacks, who was laid off first?
First contract people in the department were let go.
Then anyone close to retirement was offered a package.
Then it was based upon performance. Determined by one the 3 mgt pilots (so no one person could make a decision based upon personality)

It happened twice in the department history that I was aware of. The first time the most senior pilot left(took the package) and the most jr pilot (less then a year) was let go.

The second time the package was so good that the 5 senior pilots took it.

 

[Flyjets]

A big hurdle for many of us is the type rating requirement. Just about any corporate job out there that you would want has a requirement for a type rating. I have flown everything from the Diamond Jet to the C-5 and all but 200 of my 3000+ hours is multiengine jet time. I am not saying that I am Mr. Aviation, but I have some very decent time to offer to a company. I would love to be a part 91 corporate pilot, but I can't break through because I can't even apply due to the type rating issue. Even this Coke deal says "G-IV or G-5" type rating required. Anybody have any ideas on how to get over that hurdle? I certainly am not in a position to go pay Flight Safety $33,000 for a type rating.

 

[G4G5]

The company I am refering to did not have a type rating requirement. They were more interested in finding the right people. A 5000 hour F900 or CL604 pilot could eaisly get hired to fly a Gulfstream.

The company I am currently with does have the type required requirement. The way I would get around this is to find a department that has something close to what you fly. I know of a variety of corporate departments with lears or king airs and something heavy. Then once you are in the door, do your time and transfer to the heavy. This may take a little while but it works.

 

[Flyjets]

I have no issue flying the light jets and work my way up to the large jets. The job boards are filled with jobs, but the majority say type rating required, then at the bottom in big letters DO NOT APPLY UNLESS YOU MEET THESE REQUIREMENTS.

G4G5, I wish more companies were like yours and looked at the person and the experience instead of the couple of bucks they would save on training. Unfortunately, most of what I have seen is the opposite, and my Beechjet type rating is not getting me very far.

 

[fokkerjet]

not the same issues

We must be pretty luck because we don't have any of those issues you are talking about.

I've flown with companies that have systems like what you are discribing, and as long as you are in the right cliche, all is well. One company I flew for assigned values (points) for items on the performance review. At the end of the review, you added up the points and those with the most were considered senior that year. Great system until layoff times. For some reason, every time there was a layoff (I survived many), the ones let go were the ones close to retirement. You were pretty much a target after age 50 or outside of the cliche.

 

[metoo]

layoffs

OK. I understand the 'not being in the right chich' part but what about age discrimination lawsuits for all those over 50 types. And by the way I understand the Coke job will be a whole lot of babysitting quota fills with your ticket on the line.

 

[fokkerjet]

Re: layoffs

OK. I understand the 'not being in the right chich' part but what about age discrimination lawsuits for all those over 50 types.

There are ways to get around a lot of things........as an example, how diverse are most corporate flight departments?

As for the age 50 thing....as I discribed in another post, you assign values to each item on the performance review. You then assign junior pilots to non-flight duties that bring up their score while the senior pilots keep flying the line (and maybe picking up some of junior's flights because he's/she's in the office), not scoring any of those "bonus points". At the end of the day, junior pilot outscores senior pilot, which equals a "better" performance review, and when layoffs roll around, senior is gone because he/she just doesn't perform (not a team player) as well as the others. There were also "bonus points" given for things like flying a glass cockpit, international flying and maybe a couple other things that I don't remember. Plus, if you're dealing with a cliche, drop a point here, or a point there for the non-member, just to be sure.

Now of course, this is all fiction and will never happen in any first rate flight department, but..............

Now can this happen in a flight department that bases everything on seniority? I'm sure there's a way to do it, but I would think it would be very blatant if this was happening.

 

[G4G5]

We never had a "point" review system. The company I flew for had a system similar to the Sig Sigma that Jack Welsch used at GE

Basicly each individual is asked to preform a task. You can choose to participate or you can choose not to. If you choose not to then your job is to fly the aircraft. For that you can expect to get the basic company raise. Cost of living + what ever else is offered. No harm no foul because your job description is to fly the aircraft safely.

If you choose to participate then your task is graded on a preformance matrix that is used through out the company.

Example. You may be incharge of the fuel contracts. Your raise would be determined based on what you were able to save on the contracts at various FBO's. Sure fuel could go up and you may not save a thing but you may be able to lower costs by switching FBO's or increasing value by service. The projects are endless(safety, training, yada yada)and they are all designed to save the company money. The more you want to work the more you can make. You are graded on parameters set up by corporate and if you don't like the results you have the right to grieve the process. 9 times out of 10 the results are very good ranging from double digit raises to stock options. This allows even the newest pilot to come up to speed financially with the most senior. It also allows the company to premote based upon preformance not seniority (chief pilot).

Plain and simple. No games, no politics. Work hard and get compensated. Based upon preformance not seniority. The biggest bonus to the company is it allows it to attract the premier candidates to fill vancies. Seniority based corporate systems don't. Very few of the most experienced 10,000+ hour, age 50+ pilots take positions as junior FO in a seniority based system.

I have worked in the seniority only department and to put it simply. S roles down hill and the junior guy owns a condo in the valley. This system is antiquated to say the least. It works in the airlines because of the size and the high rates of retirements. The senior guys always get the good assignments and the junior guys get to do the European jeps while they work on some project that nobody senior to them wanted to do. This gets old fast and thier is no end in sight. The class strucutre system, is not something that transfers well to good CRM.

Again this was/is at a Fortune 5 company that I use to work for. The reality is that seniority based systems rule the corporate flying enviroment.

 

[fokkerjet]

Is it safe to say we have each been burned (or at least have seen problems) by the others system?

I also work for a Fortune 5 company, with a seniority system that works very well for the near 30 pilots that currently work here. We have sh%t, but it doesn't flow anywhere. For the most part, Captains get the assignments, with no additional pay or credit, it's just part of their duties. We all do jeppesens, I have one of the Europe sets that I update with 2 other captains.

I'll assume that your former employer treated your f/o's like sh%t, for whatever reason, we don't. Being a f/o with our company is really a pretty good deal, just walk in 60 minutes before scheduled departure, serve as PNF for 50% of the trip, and leave when you get back home (maybe check your mail) and collect a paycheck at the end of the month. Oh ya, and wait for one of us old geezers to drop dead so you can move up.

Maybe the moral to this whole thread is to look deeply into the system your future employer has in place before you commit to something that you find you can't live with. Kind of a "buyer beware" situation. Would you not agree?

 

[banned username 2]

Again this was/is at a Fortune 5 company that I use to work for.

Just curious as to why you left?

The reality is that seniority based systems rule the corporate flying enviroment.

This I don't agree with, at my company I have moved ahead of several pilots who are senior to me based on hard work and good, consistent performance.