job posting found online...

[CL60]

El Cid,

I can see from your first post that you just want to fly. Be aware that, like in any other business, there are many caveats in this business too. Some people will spend their entire careers looking for that "heavy metal" job and will never get it. Those of us who did end up with some of the best jobs in corporate aviation quite frequently waited for years to pass while helping to build a company from the ground up. Some had to wait for a long time before their companies aquired the right aircraft or for attrition to take place. Some were just in the right place at the right time with the right stuff.

Good luck,

 

[fandango]

El Cid Av8or

I am at a regional in a CRJ as an FO. I did the corporate thing for 10 years or so, took a $100K pay cut to do the airline thing. I was hired march of '01. It was hard, but I am way glad I did. I have guaranteed days off now, which never materialized in the part 91 world. I had a terriffic Corporate job and did this instead. Well worth it, especially with a family. I am 32 gonna be 33 in Nov. with 2 kids. Also, I have a Piper Apache I lease for block time. $100 /hr. wet for 50 hour block. No training, pulling engines, etc. just plain old boring holes in the sky. Its old, kind of ugly but man is it fun.

 

[swberry]

Okay, folks. I have obviously gotten myself into a major storm here so let me see if I can navigate out of it.

Here's the way I see how the aviation industry works:
1) A person spends thousands of dollars to get his or her ratings. This is where the PB&J sandwiches are eaten.
2) That person works the low-paying jobs like instructing, freight, pipe lines, etc (these are what I have found to be the entry-level jobs by hours of research; mentioning them is not intended to be mean to anyone). Still eating the PB&J sandwiches...
3) After building well over a thousand hours of time and gaining some valuable experience, that person hopefully has the qualifications to get into a regional airline or, as I want to, corporate aviation. Now we can go out to eat and when we eat at home, it's got more variety.
4) A few more years of experience and we actually see that person in the front left seat more than the front right one. Now we can put a bottle of wine on the table and get desert when we go out to eat and the steaks are on the grill at home.
5) As years pass and more hours of experience are put in the log book, we get to fly the Gulfstreams, Global Express
Jets, Boeing Business Jets, etc. (or the B767, B777, A321, etc). So now we can have steaks with the works every night whether is be at home or out on the town.

Is this the wrong plan? Am I missing something here? It's going to be a long rough ride ahead but to me, it's well worth it.

Here's my situation so bear with me for a moment... I am 31 about to be 32. I just got married in July. I have wanted to fly since I was two (so my parents tell me). I've had my license for just over 10 years and I only have 237.3 hours, 10.1 of which are in a twin. I am leaving a decent-paying but frustrating, stressful and boring IT job to pursue a life-long dream. I dare anyone to try to steal that dream because, well, you won't. I will not do any PFT and that has not even crossed my mind. I will not fly a $45 million Gulfstream for PB&J sandwiches and I would say that anyone who would needs to go ahead and have a labotomy on what little brain they have. Would I take a pay cut from (for example only) $175,000/year to $150,000/year for a while because the economy sucks? Yes, if I loved the job and the people I work with. That's it. I have pride in myself but I am not too proud to go without doing what I love to do most just because my employer wants to cut my pay because he/she can't afford it due to the economy and that was his/her reason for doing so and there was concrete proof of it.

I can take being called a $lut as I have been called much worse than most of you have ever dreamed for no reason at all. Anyone that has gone through boot camp or a military school knows what I am talking about here. If you haven't, that does not mean that you are not any less of a person than I am as I am sure you have each had you own hard experiences.

All I meant when I said what I said was this: Some people are too proud and too much caught up in what they have (physical things, 21 days off a month instead of only 15, etc) and are not willing to give anything up for a while to keep doing what makes them happy the most. In no way am I going to steal someone's job that they have spent a lot of their time and money to respectfully earn. That would catch up with me in the long run if not the short one. I sure would not want someone to do it to me either. Like I said before...I just want to fly airplanes for a living. If someone wanted to help me out by giving me a low-paying job to help me fund my training, then I would take it. If that person could afford a respectable salary for a more experienced pilot but was just using me for his/her own greedy needs, I'd turn it down in a heartbeat because it's not fair to the people who have already gone through the tough times and are looking for jobs.

Now, we are all professionals here so let's keep it that way. I am open to criticism but I prefer the constructive kind. I am also requesting guidance and friendly advice regarding my aviation career (and other areas of life too). I am not perfect though I try to be. Flame suit is on but if you are going to through a flame, keep your professional demeanor and send me a private message.

Nice job El Cid. I like the way you handled that. Hang in there and good luck with your change in careers.

 

[yosemite]

Hey El Cid,

Let me share a few pearls of experience gained from doing the exact same thing you're doing, only I started down my 'dream' path 18 years ago.

First of all, don't let the guys dissuade you from your dream. It isn't that they don't want you to succeed, its more likely that they know how hard the climb is and don't want someone to cheapen the job after they've given so much to get there. Also, there is likely in all of us who have been doing it a while an erstwhile wish that we could impart on you the despair you will feel sometime as you make your climb.

Now for some reality; unless you are the one in 100,000 among us that lucks into a job from the git-go, then the most likely scenerio for you is that it is going to take a good 5 to 10 years or more for you to work into a flying job that will pay you as much as you were making in the dull IT business. Your likely path will be to instruct for a couple of years until you've built enough time to get into charter work. You'll work there for another year or two building multi-engine time to get that first job with a regional... and that may be a stretch considering the current state of our industry. After you've done a couple of years with a regional carrier, you'll just be coming into the real 'zone' of flying experience where guys are getting hired into the major airlines or that perfect corporate job.

And if it is a corporate job that you're looking for, then you better start washing airplanes and kissing butt and one of the big jet corporate operators in the nearest large metropolis cause you'll never make any money in the corporate field until you get into the big birds, and you'll have to know someone to get that first job. Corporate aviation is very much a word of mouth business. You have to know someone, who knows someone, who is willing to speak up to the boss for you, to get the interview.

What else does it mean? Well try this.. it means moving your wife and family from one city to the next, in chase of a job that will allow you to build hours and ratings to get that "good" job. And I do mean move, a lot. If you don't go in search of the job, your time to make it will be doubled. If you are unwilling to move, you might as well kiss it goodbye unless you're living dead smack in the middle of the biggest hotbed of aviation in this country.

It means never being home... and it means when you are home, you'll still be thinking about the job or working on stuff you don't have time to finish while you're there. Its gonna mean lots of long, long days for little or no pay. Its gonna mean flying some sh*t airplanes or not flying at all. Its gonna mean some folks will definitely take advantage of your willingness to work for little or nothing, and they will tell you to do it or hit the door. It means flying by yourself in weather that scares the crap out of you because the boss says the trip MUST go or you will get fired.

You say you won't do that? Sure you do... we all did. Until, that is, we had to decide on trying to find another job or continue to pay the bills. So, there will be a flight, or two, or three, or more that you will capitulate on and, against your limited and unsure judgement, you will make. Some will turn out to be anti-climatic. Some.... well lets just say that you will learn what is bad, and what is very, very, very bad. Eventually you will know and there _will_ come a day when there is no price high enough to make you go fly. And when you wonder if you made the right decision, as you look at your last paycheck, take the pictures of your kids out of your wallet and compare them. The answer will be staring you in the face.

Right now the market for pilots is heading down from the hiring high wave it has been riding since the early 90's. Forecasts indicated that it would top early this decade and begin to drop off, looking for another lull between 2010 and 2025 (when the current young kids just getting hired reach 60+ years and are forced into retirement). What this means is that after the 9-1-1 tragedy, hiring has taken a big hit and is going to be slow to come back... and the need curve will be going down all the while.

The end result? You'll be in your 40's before you get the realistic average requsite flight time (around 4000 hrs, half multi, 25% turbine) and land that first real good paying flying job.

So, are you depressed yet? Don't be. Just be realistic about the career path you have chosen and prepare yourself and your family for the sacrifices it will take before you finally start earning anything near what you earned in the IT biz. Keep in mind that none of us are doing it because we HATE flying.. hehehe. We're all here and we all put up with the crap this career generates because flying is our passion and our love, and most of us would fly for free if we could find a way to pay the bills as well.

One last thing. What the other guys are trying to say is to not cheapen the job. When you finally start flying for a living, do your research and know what the job should pay in the region you will be working in. (note: different rates for same job/same aircraft in different parts of the country). Read the salary surveys in Pro Pilot and B/CA magazines. Argue for the right salary even if you are low time; your research should reflect what a low time guy is getting and you should work to get that rate. To make any less effort cheapens what we've been through before you, and will only lead to less pay for the next low time schmuck who comes along behind you.

Think about it. And from a fellow airman, good luck and good fortune.

 

[CL60]

Nice job yo'

 

[BoDEAN]

Thanks

Thanks for the post.
I am a low time guy (400hrs Commercial Instrument SEL/MEL) currently trying to find a job. Appreciate the post

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Thanks

swberry:
Thanks for the support.

yosemite:
Thanks for the support and the advice. Good thing my wife is a nurse and she can pretty much find a decent job anywhere (too bad the aviation field isn't like that). We've already trimmed the budget and I have started a list of contacts. A lot of those came from friends of my parents and friends of my wife's co-workers. The corporate world in general is about who you know. You pretty much stated what I had figured out - first decent paying job in early 40's. Nothing worth having doesn't come easy and without some (or a lot of) sacrifice. I love flying so it's worth it to me.

See ya'll on the airways, just try not to rattle my piston-driven wings too much when you zip by in the turbines

Blue skies and tailwinds...

 

[English]

How can EJM advertise a 135 job with no guaranteed days off? What about regs? You know, the one that states that a pilot needs to have thirteen days off every quarter? Days that can't be scheduled off retroactively?

 

[donkeykong]

I used to work at EJM. Some love it there, some hate it. Here's why: They manage corporate aircraft all over the country that are all owned by different corporations (or individuals). Those owners all work out different contracts with EJM. Some owners are more generous than others.
When I was there, they had a hard time finding a crew for a G IV that was to be based in San Fran. The offer was extended to the EJM pilots that met the flight time mins. I recall that the initial CA pay on that airplane was going to be 90K. There were no takers mostly because everybody knew the cost of living in SFO. (This was back in 1999, definately different times). EJM had to look outside the company to find a crew. I'm not sure if that aircraft ever made it into the EJM system.
The job posting that is being discussed in this post reminds me of that same situation. However, I have friends that are still at EJM and have worked their way into a sweet deal. All job postings go internal first. And the pilots that have been there a while know what to look for. Sometimes, it's all about location.
FYI: Most of the senior pilots at EJM are flying the Falcons on the "float" schedule. This is a backup to the EJA system. (You don't have to live where the aircraft is located).
So my guess is that since no EJM pilot went after this position, (before it got posted to the public pilot population), it either stinks or there is nobody that meets the flight time mins that is willing to move to that location.