JO and pilots wages

[big dog1]

>
>
> Mr Ornstein, question for you!
>
> Obviosly, you are very good with numbers. And you well know the
cost
> of business, living, and raising a family. In your opinion then,
> given current economic conditions, what is the minimum pay a pilot
> who has a wife and two kids could earn in a year to make ends meet
> in the USA? I'm ABSOLUTELY looking for a numeric value, give or
> take, say, $10,000. We know that people have different concepts of
> what is livable and granted there are other variables in the
> question. But I'm talking in most generic realistic terms here.
What
> is the number, in your opinion?
>
> I'm not asking you to answer it as Jonathan Ornstein, the CEO of
the
> Mesa Air Group. We all know that you can pay an adult professional
> $18,000 a year because, quite frankly, demand dictates that you
> can get away with it. That's business. We all know that. And we all
> know that flying is an "in demand" job. But what do you Jonathan
> Ornstein, the human being, believe is a realistic number to make
> ends meet with a wife and two kids? Do you believe $18,000 is
> realistic? If so, that's ok. I just want to know your
> answer.
>
> Second question, if that number that you have answered is higher
than
> the salary you can pay based on demand, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT have a
> moral obligation, as CEO, to see that your pilot employees make a
> living wage?
>
> Just curious.
> Eagerly waiting your response.




Should I assume that a pilot, his wife and two children need more to
live on than say a ramper' flight attendant or office worker? Or do
they just eat
less?
--- In
[email protected], "starving1900pilot"
<starving1900pilot@y...> wrote:

 

[Beechnut]

Doesn't matter what JO thinks. The pilots thought that was good enough and voted it in.

You guys F'd yourselves.

S.

 

[captjim]

Doesn't matter what JO thinks. The pilots thought that was good enough and voted it in.

You guys F'd yourselves.

S.

That just about sums it up!

 

[PCL_128]

Doesn't matter what JO thinks. The pilots thought that was good enough and voted it in.

You guys F'd yourselves.

S.

Well said. I don't want to hear another Mesa pilot complain until this contract is amendable. You guys agreed to this sh!t contract, now live with it until it's time for your next one. Very few in this industry have any sympathy for you anymore, so stop complaining.

Disclaimer: The above does not apply to those of you at Mesa that had the courage to vote NO.

 

[GCD]

JO doesn't care about anyone but JO. You should have realized that in your negotiations. He just plays better poker than you do. You guys blinked and folded. You can't cry foul when you fold in a poker game.

 

[WhiteCloud]

JO doesn't care about anyone but JO. You should have realized that in your negotiations. He just plays better poker than you do. You guys blinked and folded. You can't cry foul when you fold in a poker game.

I'm looking forward to the day when other companies are hiring and the JO's training costs go through the roof when pilots fly there for a few months and move on. That's the only scenario I'd waste any time at MESA for.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

I'm looking forward to the day when other companies are hiring and the JO's training costs go through the roof when pilots fly there for a few months and move on. That's the only scenario I'd waste any time at MESA for.

With labor costs so low at Mesa, I doubt any other regional will match their hiring for the next several years. Mesa pilots will be working under their contract for a very long time.

 

[hagen]

Just another quick Thanks to those Mesa pilots who voted it in. Nothing like whoring yourself out and Fu*??ing the rest of us somewhere else trying to BETTER our lives. Guess those college loans will have to wait..along with a house, new car, bills, getting married, having a life, etc... Someone pilot group somewhere needs to take a stand. I'm can go shovel sheeeeet and make 20 grand a year!!!

Thanks to those Mesa guys who had the balls to say no. I appreciate your BACKBONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cargoboy]

Bummer

JO is an incredible business person. He played you pilots and played you good. It is VERY unfortunate you all accepted the contract. And like someone else posted you just made it that much harder for us to be hoping to make any sort of a liveable wage when we get OUR first 121 job. But the market is in there favor for now......Hopefully time will change that and we can actually be proud of the airline we work for.

 

[CitationLover]

guys (or should it be tots?).....

since your acting like two year olds whining so much, you need to start licking the boogers from your fingers as you've been picking your nose way too much.

we'll see when contracts come under negotiations how you guys act when your a$$es are on the lines. my guess is we'll have a lot of hypocrites.

 

[tittyjet]

No hypocrite here, pal, I'll go back to a desk job before I'll whore myself out like those MESA pussies did. I hope all of them get robbed (but not hurt, just the sh*t scared out of 'em) while working their second jobs as Domino's drivers.

What a joke. Pilots on foodstamps -- thanks to MESA it's now going to happen. Nice. Real F*cking nice job, guys.

 

[hagen]

F$*k you CitationBlower I'll gladly quit and go go be a forrest ranger before I'll whore myself out anymore. I wish nothing but the worst for you and your big mouth. May you rot in Hell BEECH>

I'm ready, willing, and waiting to strike.

Why don't you speak only when you have been put in a similar position or been here for 4 years!!! BIG MOUTH!! Look in the mirror!!

 

[CitationLover]

hagen, are you in prison for beating your wife? oj's personal pilot?
enjoy the strike. don't shove the sign too far up yer a$$ while you're walking the line. better yet say hi to smokey as you become ranger bob.

you're right hagen, i haven't been in that position yet. perhaps you're the dummy for being put in that position?

hagen/tittyjet: since you guys have phd's in business/finance/economics, what should a first yr f/o at a regional make? since your both so daring what airlines do you work for? let's take a look at YOUR contracts. i'm sure you all are being pimp hussled also.

i guess "professional" is from the latin derivative for "bitcher" according to this thread.

 

[hagen]

This is my only reply to you so take it for whats its worth. I could give 2 cents what a first year F/O makes but when your approaching 3,4,5 years and still are unable to fully support yourself without a second job (Read disposable income) something is wrong. NOW as long as there are little punks that want to Steer an Airplane at any cost MGT will be more than happy to accomodate. Will they pay you a liveable wage? NO! But you will get your lifelong ambition of steering an airplane.

Now I have been here, done that, got the tshirt. AM I one of those who just wants to Steer an Airplane at any given cost. NO! You can pay me a decent wage or see-ya. I'm sure the next punk is more than willing to scum off the bottom to wear the uniform. Somewhere the downward spiral has to end.

What really gets me is when people like yourself that have no experience in the subject being devil's advocate.
attitudes like yours are what hurts not helps the situation.

 

[likeitis]

I finally was able to read the mesa contract last night and was dumbfounded. This thing is horid. The only and I say only reason I would have voted for this thing was if JO had kidnapped my children and said he would kill them if the TA didn't pass. Other than that I would rather throw sawdust on puke and sweep it up than work under that rag.

 

[beechdriver]

No hypocrite here, pal, I'll go back to a desk job before I'll whore myself out like those MESA pussies did. I hope all of them get robbed (but not hurt, just the sh*t scared out of 'em) while working their second jobs as Domino's drivers.

What a joke. Pilots on foodstamps -- thanks to MESA it's now going to happen. Nice. Real F*cking nice job, guys.

Good lord, you have GOT to be kidding me. That has got to be the most unprofessional statement I have read on this board.

 

[Jeepman]

guys (or should it be tots?).....


we'll see when contracts come under negotiations how you guys act when your a$$es are on the lines. my guess is we'll have a lot of hypocrites.

Yes, it will be interesting. Although if other pilots do vote for a substandard contract, don't call them hipocrites. They would probably realize that if they don't vote in the contract then MESA will get their flying. Although I think many pilots would probably vote no & start sending out resumes to other places, outside of aviation.


BTW, you probably make what 60K a year flying your citation. Must be nice

 

[stillaboo]

Uh-oh, is this backpedaling I see?

Yes, it will be interesting. Although if other pilots do vote for a substandard contract, don't call them hipocrites. They would probably realize that if they don't vote in the contract then MESA will get their flying.

Just as if Mesa didn't vote in their contract the flying would have most likely gone to other airlines, like Freedom. If you're not with Mesa, then you probably disagree with this statement. Then again, you aren't informed (reading the the contract doesn't make you informed, just 1/2 as clueless as others who haven't), so your opinion is just that, an uninformed guess.

If ANYONE who bashes Mesa is even associated with an airline that takes ANY kind of concessions, then the label 'hypocrite' SHOULD be shouted quite loudly. Hopefully, Mesa will raise the bar by not treating others the way they were treated, and refrain from the yelling.

Mesa didn't take ANY cuts (read the old and new Mesa contracts and see for yourself). Mainline is taking them, but they're not calling others hypocrites either. Each group must do what it must do, and ALL pilots should support each other in this fight or we'll all go down together.

Take care of your own house. If managment holds out the Mesa contract and says, "Your jobs will go to Mesa if you don't take concessions", you have two answers.

1) You're right. We are no better than Mesa. In fact, we're going to do them one better. We will accept a concessionary contract. (Mesa's contract has increases in EVERY section but one, which remained the same. The increases are small, however. The scope is great, but it is untested as of yet.)

2) Mesa's contract is crap. We will not be influenced by crap. Our current contract is unacceptable. We demand increases. We will strike or go work somewhere else before we sign a contract that doesn't include increases across the board. Oh, and ALL these increases will be compared to the best in the industry (Skywest, Commair, etc.) If the numbers are not better than the current top, we will not accept it. We do NOT lower the bar here.

So far, everyone who bashes Mesa is saying they will take option 2, and demand the best in the industry. For some pilots who are already at the top, this effort will be challenging. For others (Great Lakes, et. al.) this will almost certainly fold their airline.

If you feel the Mesa contract is too low, then speak out with something that matters, your vote! Don't vote in anything that isn't industry leading. Raise the bar back up and show the Mesa pilots what should have been in their contract.

If you bash Mesa for their contract and their failure to 'raise the bar', regardless of the unique circumstances Mesa might have faced and then take concessions or fail to raise the bar yourself, then you are a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold; you are a hypocrite. There are no excuses like "our flying will go somewhere else and our jobs will be eliminated." Nope. Pilots have said they'd 'go back to flying a desk before working for Mesa', they'd 'strike before working under the Mesa contract', 'Mesa pilot's don't have the kind of guts that I have', and they'd rather 'clean the toilets at Walmart with their tounges than work for Mesa'.

Prove it! Put your $ and your job where your mouth is! Anything less than industry leading in every category makes you a hypocrite.

If you're gonna talk the talk, then walk the picket line to get what you deserve.

Oh, and don't forget that flying an RJ might now be career job, so industry leading should be better than Delta. Strap on a sack, boys, b/c the stakes are high. The industry is depending on you. Don't let us down.

-Boo!

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

Absolutely the BEST post I have seen on this board regarding the Mesa contract.

Thanks Boo for your concise analysis without the usual emotional rhetoric.

Let's see if others will join you.

 

[beechdriver]

I agree - nicely done, Boo.

Oh, and that's a freakin hilarious avatar, Plebe!

 

[acaTerry]

Just a question for boo. You say the contract/TA has increases in every area. But I have heard that the minimum days off actually DROPPED to 8. What is the truth here? I'm not going after you. It's just an honest question.

 

[WileE]

The minimum days off for a reserve line were 8 before the new contract and they are 8 now. The minimum days off for a line was 9 under the old contract and is now 10 under the new contract.

 

[jetdriven]

min days off for a reserve pilot are 8 PER BID. we have a 28-day bid which equals 13 bids per year or 8.66 days off per month.

lineholders get ten days or 11 per month.

 

[kommutrdog]

Wow...8.66 days off per month..what will you do with all that time... probably real easy to keep a healthy relationship together with a significant other, but then again that sort of thing is not important for 75% of the pilots who voted YES.

Hey, but mesa gets to fly jets...whooppeeee.

The spouses of pilots have to be very understanding, but 8.66 days off is a little much to ask. God forbid if you commute.

Good luck to you all. Enjoy your 8.66 days off.

 

[j41driver]

min days off for a reserve pilot are 8 PER BID. we have a 28-day bid which equals 13 bids per year or 8.66 days off per month.

Wow, really??? That's a whole lot better than only having 8 days off. Give me a break.

 

[embdrvr]

For a clue as to why the situation is the way it is you have to look real hard at where Mesa get their pilots from. The better regionals like ACA, AWA, and SkyWest for example do not have too many programs like MAPD, PACE, or other Mesa style deals that put low time inexperienced pilots in the right seat. If these guys had been around the industry for a while they would be less willing to sell their soul. A lot of these guys are saying "whoopee, no more renting the 172 or the Duchess, I actually get paid to fly." The rest of us that flew 135 for a couple of thousand hours before we made it to a regional look at things a bit differently.

Don't be so hard on these guys. Many of them simply don't know any better.

 

[CitationLover]

embdrvr,

please watch out as the pedestal you were on has fallen out from under your feet. did you by chance goto embry riddle?

 

[js31pilot]

I HATE to even mention it but it would not be too hard to concieve that PFT might come back GOD FORBID.

When times are tough it is a TEST for CHARACTER........

 

[jetdriven]

its closer to 9. compare apples to apples. PLus this is only reserve pilots. line holders get 10, which is closer to 11 per month. not far off from AIRWIS who gets 12 days off per month. WOW a whole 12 more days off per year.

you guys are making more of this than it really is. Our 70 seat rates arent far from AIRWIS's newly signed 70 seat rates.

 

[embdrvr]

embdrvr,

please watch out as the pedestal you were on has fallen out from under your feet. did you by chance goto embry riddle?

I don't think you know WTF you're talking about. Embry Riddle? Give me a break a$$hole. I never had that kind of money. It was public college all the way for me. I did my ratings at local FBO's while I worked a real job outside aviation. I instructed, did a bit of corporate flying and a bunch of 135 freight. I've paid my dues so don't give me any crap about a pedestal unless you'd like that pedestal inserted (content deleted to avoid offending younger viewers).

Read my post. All I'm saying is that pilots that come out of those programs without any real world flying, life, or work experience are far more likely to vote in $hit contracts like the one just voted in by Mesa.