jets for jobs at ASA?

[CarjCapt]

Carjcapt,

You are right, "you" did not take our flying. You were actually there for us when nobody was flying--protecting market share. Fair enough?

General:

Thank you for admitting the reality of our collective situation.


You do speak the truth, but your senior guys still think that since they have been flying "Delta passengers" for 15 years---then they deserve 15 year seniority at Delta. That dog will also not hunt. If we all put away our egos and we all got together--we could have something special. But date of hire won't stick.

As a famous person said "There you go again" you are assuming facts not in evidence. No one wholly owned pilot deserves any seniority at any other airline yours included. However, if integrated or merged, they do deserve negotiation (through ALPA by-laws as it was written prior to 2000) of how that integration or merge be done. But you knew that.

CarjCapt

 

[Vortilon]

Look guys, I think there's a bit too much paranoia going on around here. As far as we furloughees go, DL is short on pilots. We just had another 34 retire last month on top of the nearly 300 the month before. Its going to take a long while to get us all back and in the end DL probably will only have about 7000 pilots once we're all back and more folks have bailed from the top. Once recalled, people are being trained...nobody is sitting around.

Who knows what the future holds, but I don't think any of the pilots at the DCI carriers have anything to worry about.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Grinstein is saying all you need is 6,000 after the work rules changes.

 

[embdrvr]

j4j and flow-throughs are not acceptable. They have not worked anywhere they have been used.

The SkyWest guys seem pretty happy with their J4J deal with UAL.

 

[Vortilon]

And that quote can be found where? I doubt he's ever mentioned a hard number like that or it'd be quoted by every pilot all the time.

You may be 100% correct...who knows. Kinda hard to believe we've gone from 10,000+ to 7500 and we're still going to get to 6000? Thats the size of CAL/NW and we are a much bigger company and still adding mainline flights.

Merger mania will certainly be intersting in a few years!

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2

That dog won't hunt. We are alter ego Delta pilots. ASA nor Comair get to choose where to fly. The folks at Delta tell us where to fly. We have no say so whatsoever. So we really are low paid Delta pilots.

701EV

The dog that won't hunt is believing the drivel eminating from the clowns from the RJDC.

Just tell me where in the ALPA C&BLs or administrative manual it allows for members of one MEC to be involved in the negotiations of another MEC?

The Delta pilots negotiate the Delta PWA, not the ASA or CMR PWA and the ASA/CMR MEC do not get to negotiate in the Delta PWA.

The fact that you chose to fly for an airline that does not fly it's own code and you chose not to negotiate any meaningful change of control/successorship language in your PWA does not have any bearing on the longstanding relationship between Delta and the pilots in the service of Delta Air Lines.

At the end of the day, ALPA is empowered, by Delta pilots, to negotiate the Delta PWA on behalf of the Delta pilots, not the ASA or CMR pilots.

Good luck hunting. It was just about year ago that the gang that couldn't shoot straight, the RJDC, had 9 out of 10 claims summarily dismissed without even making it to discovery. Six of the claims were such blatant fabrications, the judge determined that no possible facts could support them.

 

[sleepy]

I could see DAL maybe starting a Mid-Atlantic alter-ego airline staffed by DAL's furloughed pilots, provided they can get the total costs down to ASA and Comair levels. I can't see any DAL furloughs being placed at ASA or Comair without the consent of the ASA and Comair MECs. The level of violence and the disruption to service that this would cause would destroy both airlines.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yes, but the DFR suit remains, ALPA did not manage to stop discovery and the suit was filed in time to use the changes in ALPA's conduct after 1998 as a trigger.

Remember, ALPA ratified your contract. ALPA also had a fiduciary obligation to represent the pilots at ASA and Comair. Scoping us out, then taking our jobs, is not what most Courts would define as "fair representation."

Not that it matters. What I can't figure out is why the Delta pilots rally behind scope policy and J4J protocols when they see what has happened over at US Air and United.

The RJDC does serve a purpose in protecting ASA and Comair pilots' interests. But even more than the RJDC, ALPA's own incompetence has protected ASA and Comair pilots from most of what the DMEC would have done to us. Lets think about it:

(1) Delta MEC fought merger proposal - result - pilots furloughed while DCI grew
(2) Delta MEC negotiated hard for scope and job protections - result - Delta's financial performance hit the triggers that lifted the most onerous limitations.
(3) Delta MEC negotiated and won block hour limits that would have forced Delta to park DCI airplanes as "downside protection" against mainline furloughs. In plain english "if Delta furloughs then DCI must furlough." - Result - Even the Delta MEC realized that parking RJ's would result in more, not fewer mainline furloughs and the Delta MEC renegotiated block hour ratios to keep DCI flying.

In the time I have been at ASA, we have tripled in size. The Delta seniority list has shrunk by at least 3,000 pilots. All of this has happened while ALPA, at the direction of the Delta MEC has bent a few laws, broken a few and changed their own rules so that DCI could be "scoped."

Making your scope section grow from 7 pages to 40 does not benefit your contract. Management runs your scope blockade because the economics make it impossible to abide.

And again I ask you - what is wrong with perfect scope? All Delta flying done by Delta pilots. If you want our airplanes, our flying, our votes and our jobs, you can have that - onelist.

The problem with divide and destroy is that it uses a lot of resources, probably is illegal and make you lots of enemies. So far in exchanges between Haber and ALPA, ALPA has yet to score a win. Do you think this will be different?

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,


Finally awake from your daze. If there will be such animosity from the guys at ASA for a J4J deal, then Delta would have to create another DCI unit and fill it with furloughs. That could work. You're right--kinda like another "MDA" type--but with CR7s and 100 seaters....


Fins,

Grinstein may want 6000 total pilots, but Dalpa will not give up any additional jobs and even crafted the recall to last through negotiations. If the company wants NEW aircraft after the pay cut---they will use our furloughs. I am sure they can craft a pay scale that is lower (like they did for Delta Express in '96) and our guys will flow over to new CR7s or 100 seaters. The key fact here is NEW---we can negotiate for NEW aircraft-- and if Delta wants those new aircraft and new pay scales--they will deal with Dalpa....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wms]

The SkyWest guys seem pretty happy with their J4J deal with UAL.

So far so good; The measure of success will be if there is equity when/if things move the other way.

Perhaps you are not participating in Delta pilot contract talks because you are not a Delta pilot and you have no contract with Delta to participate in. After all, the Delta pilots don't participate in ASA or CMR contract talks.

True. But through the PWA DAL has negotiated flying at the subsidiaries. But, that's just the way it goes; the largest group has the most influence with the company and the group that pays the most dues has the influence with ALPA. There's no heart burn there, just facts. That's why DCI has no influence over a DCI merger or other issues and why we need DALPA support for the issues that are important to us.

You do speak the truth, but your senior guys still think that since they have been flying "Delta passengers" for 15 years---then they deserve 15 year seniority at Delta. That dog will also not hunt. If we all put away our egos and we all got together--we could have something special. But date of hire won't stick.

You speak the truth also. But I should remind you again that this is a very small and uninfluencial minority. Even in 2000 they were not as influencial as ALPA and the DMEC led you to believe.

Vortilon is right. Most of this is driven by paranioa, along with some whip-sawing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

General :

I see your point. Your problem is that ALPA's ratification of your 2000 contract is under review in the Courts.

Besides, why do you think a US Air style jets for jobs program is the smart move to make? Please tell me of an example where this jets for jobs protocol has been a success?

Do you really want to come down here and slug it out with ASA, Comair, Eagle, Chautauqua, Skyway and Mesa to see who can fly the cheapest? Remember the US Air E170 pilots undercut the CC Air "hugely concessionary" contract and they make around $5.00 to $6.00 less than I do.

What is your MEC thinking - are they thinking?

~~~^~~~

 

[Swaayze]

Actually I think you're going to see that the J4J program is already very successful for the regional carriers participating. Most furloughed U pilots are not taking the positions which is very beneficial for the regionals' pilot groups, as they now have many positions they wouldn't have otherwise if not for J4J. For the mainline furloughees, they've had automatic opportunities in a tough job market, and all have now had the opportunity to bid on Captain's positions at various carriers. For the wholly-owned U Express pilots, they have an opportunity (however shaky it may be) to move to mainline if (and only if) they choose.

The other side of the coin of course, is that it has really hurt the compensation of airline pilots in general, but that's a whole other topic.

Face it folks, this is a huge realignment of the airline industry and its caste system. Adapt or die. Although I'm not very familiar with the intricacies of the Delta system I think a J4J/MidAtlantic type of deal would probably work out ok. Something's gotta give or DAL will not be the least bit competitive in the new marketplace.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Actually I think you're going to see that the J4J program is already very successful for the regional carriers participating. Most furloughed U pilots are not taking the positions which is very beneficial for the regionals' pilot groups, as they now have many positions they wouldn't have otherwise if not for J4J. For the mainline furloughees, they've had automatic opportunities in a tough job market, and all have now had the opportunity to bid on Captain's positions at various carriers. For the wholly-owned U Express pilots, they have an opportunity (however shaky it may be) to move to mainline if (and only if) they choose.

The other side of the coin of course, is that it has really hurt the compensation of airline pilots in general, but that's a whole other topic.

Swaayze,
With all due respect, IT IS NOT A WHOLE DIFFERENT TOPIC. Let's go over what the J4J program does for the regional pilot. Here is what you said about this program:

"For the wholly-owned U Express pilots, they have an opportunity (however shaky it may be) to move to mainline if (and only if) they choose."

and

"The other side of the coin of course, is that it has really hurt the compensation of airline pilots in general, but that's a whole other topic"


So to summerize, you are saying that the regional pilot is getting a job at a lower payrate and a possible shaky opportunity to move to a low payed "mainline" job in exchange for allowing it's union to limit what it could have flown at a higher payrate. I'm missing the "benefit" here.