Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Jetblue's Neelman:define hypocracy

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

relief tube

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Posts
999
A couple months ago, he partially blamed JB's financial troubles on too-low "irrational fares" by other carriers. Now Im reading in USA todays online section about Airways having to cut fares on it's shuttle cuz JB has $25 intro fares BOS-JFK.

I'm sorry, you can't drive greyhound for that low. Who's being irrational now?

No fire here at all, but get your 190 rates more above regional RAH so your company won't be able charge less than a cab ride. If you work for someone that can charge that little for a flight, somethings wrong.
 
relief tube said:
A couple months ago, he partially blamed JB's financial troubles on too-low "irrational fares" by other carriers. Now Im reading in USA todays online section about Airways having to cut fares on it's shuttle cuz JB has $25 intro fares BOS-JFK.

I'm sorry, you can't drive greyhound for that low. Who's being irrational now?

No fire here at all, but get your 190 rates more above regional RAH so your company won't be able charge less than a cab ride. If you work for someone that can charge that little for a flight, somethings wrong.
While I agree with much of what you said, I believe that you won't find a plane load of $25.00 fares. There are only a few seats on the aircraft that are sold at that low (rediculous) price.
Just m .02
737
 
relief tube said:
A couple months ago, he partially blamed JB's financial troubles on too-low "irrational fares" by other carriers. Now Im reading in USA todays online section about Airways having to cut fares on it's shuttle cuz JB has $25 intro fares BOS-JFK.

I'm sorry, you can't drive greyhound for that low. Who's being irrational now?

No fire here at all, but get your 190 rates more above regional RAH so your company won't be able charge less than a cab ride. If you work for someone that can charge that little for a flight, somethings wrong.

Those were promotional fares when service was launched to gain market share. I checked fares for travel tomorrow and 2 weeks from now.. Fares were between 90-145 each way. Us Airways must have looked at our load factors on that route and decided to lower fares to $100 to compete.

The same with Portland ME, When we launced with intro fares we were had flights with only 30 or 40 passengers now that the market has dicovered the route our load factors are over 90% on these routes this summer.

These low fare short haul routes are extremely profitable for us.

I hope Us Air can fill their birds and make some good $$ as well
 
Pilot spelling...

relief tube said:
Im reading in USA todays online section about Airways having to cut fares on it's shuttle cuz JB has $25 intro fares BOS-JFK.

I'm sorry, you can't drive greyhound for that low. Who's being irrational now?

Well you MUST be an airline pilot since you have awful spelling.

:beer:

And as others have said ... the promo fares were in fact low. But they were of a very limited duration and served as advertising... creating a "buzz."

You can have higher initial fares and spend hundreds of thousands on advertising or have "promo" fares and let the media do the advertising for you.

Neeleman's business plan has gone through at LEAST three revisions and he is intent on having a SUSTAINABLE business plan.

The E190 rates are low... they need to go up and will go up.
But the flying is "in house" and there is upside potential with upgrades and the A320.

Hypocrisy?

Maybe some from your perspective.

But what about Chapter 11 laws... squeezing labor ... cancelling pensions...
scoping out flying to regionals... CEOs cashing in MILLIONS?

Get a grip..

Jetblue with 110 airplanes isn't the cause of all your 3500 hour woes...
 
Last edited:
relief tube said:
A couple months ago, he partially blamed JB's financial troubles on too-low "irrational fares" by other carriers. Now Im reading in USA todays online section about Airways having to cut fares on it's shuttle cuz JB has $25 intro fares BOS-JFK.

I'm sorry, you can't drive greyhound for that low. Who's being irrational now?

No fire here at all, but get your 190 rates more above regional RAH so your company won't be able charge less than a cab ride. If you work for someone that can charge that little for a flight, somethings wrong.

You need to look up the definition of intro fare before you run your mouth. Where did you go to school? University of Alabama? :laugh:
 
Hey Relief...

Hypocrisy???? Try competing against airlines that continue to be allowed to operate indefinitley in bankruptcy... is that fair that the JetBlue employees have to lose money on profit sharing due to the fact that some of our major competitors flounder in bankruptcy???? I think not.

Tail
 
tailhookah said:
Hey Relief...

Hypocrisy???? Try competing against airlines that continue to be allowed to operate indefinitley in bankruptcy... is that fair that the JetBlue employees have to lose money on profit sharing due to the fact that some of our major competitors flounder in bankruptcy???? I think not.

Tail


Some of which are in bankruptcy because pilots at other airlines, including Jetblue, are willing to the job for half the pay and benefits. Welcome to the industry.
 
800Dog said:
Some of which are in bankruptcy because pilots at other airlines, including Jetblue, are willing to the job for half the pay and benefits. Welcome to the industry.


Oh I always forget the demise of the industry is because of jetblue, nope airtran oh yeah not anymore... thats right southwest and frontier are the ones to blame!! What an idiot
 
tailhookah said:
Hey Relief...

Hypocrisy???? Try competing against airlines that continue to be allowed to operate indefinitley in bankruptcy... is that fair that the JetBlue employees have to lose money on profit sharing due to the fact that some of our major competitors flounder in bankruptcy???? I think not.

Tail

That is funny.

AA
 
clickclickboom said:
Oh I always forget the demise of the industry is because of jetblue, nope airtran oh yeah not anymore... thats right southwest and frontier are the ones to blame!! What an idiot


I do not recall saying Jetblue, Southwest, Airtran or Frontier are to blame for the demise of the industry. The fact that pilots at the aformentioned airlines were willing to fly for half the pay and benefits as the legacy carriers certainly was a factor in the adjustments we have seen in pay in benefits at the legacies. To think otherwise makes you the idiot and one who is beloved by management.
 
Your superficial "analysis" is another great fallacy being perpetrated by the ALPA goon squad.

After watching nearly every other legacy airline pilot group toss their principles out the window and accept significant pay cuts tells me that the problem must be a human one and not the exclusive domain of LCC pilots.
 
800Dog said:
I do not recall saying Jetblue, Southwest, Airtran or Frontier are to blame for the demise of the industry. The fact that pilots at the aformentioned airlines were willing to fly for half the pay and benefits as the legacy carriers certainly was a factor in the adjustments we have seen in pay in benefits at the legacies. To think otherwise makes you the idiot and one who is beloved by management.


NEWSFLASH!!!

Major Legacy carriers finally learn that the cause for billions of dollars in losses over the last 10 years are the direct result of the payscales at lcc carriers that represent a fraction of total airline capacity.

Yesterday a Delta Pilot was arrested for assult. The 25 Year veteran pilot after 23 thousand hours of flying for Atlanta based Delta Airlines received inside information from an online message board named "flightinfo.com" that the reason for the loss of his 3 million dollar retirement was caused by sub standard payscales of an airline named LUV and another named B6. Upon discovery he got into his $100,000 Mercedes SL 500 and started ramming pilots in Jfk at terminal 6 with his car. 13 pilots remain in stable condition at an area hospital.
 
AAflyer said:
That is funny.

I don't know, I think the idea of paying dues to ALPA for 30 years, only to have them drop you like a bad habit when you retire as the management of your old company guts your retirement is a little silly, too.
 
Daedalus said:
Your superficial "analysis" is another great fallacy being perpetrated by the ALPA goon squad.

After watching nearly every other legacy airline pilot group toss their principles out the window and accept significant pay cuts tells me that the problem must be a human one and not the exclusive domain of LCC pilots.

Did it ever occur to you that they had to accept significant paycuts in order to compete with the LCC pilots? Did it ever occur to you that the LCC pilots tossed their principles by accepting a job for 1/2 of what others do the job for? I hope you have few mirrors in your home!
 
800Dog said:
Some of which are in bankruptcy because pilots at other airlines, including Jetblue, are willing to the job for half the pay and benefits. Welcome to the industry.

Moron, do you realize that over half of the company your are blaming for working for low wages and benefits are furloughed from carriers that paid the high wages and benefits.

Oviously not or you wouldnt have opened mouth and inserted foot!
 
800Dog said:
Some of which are in bankruptcy because pilots at other airlines, including Jetblue, are willing to the job for half the pay and benefits. Welcome to the industry.

Do a little research on free market economies and supply and demand. If I can't get the neighborhood kid to mow my lawn for $20 then I have to find the $ amount that will attract someone to mow my lawn. However, if there are way too many kids willing to mow my lawn for $25, I will eventually find one who will do it for $20 (or maybe less). The sad truth is that until there are not enough pilots willing to work for these wages, we will continue to be paid these wages. When you (and thousands of others) decide that it's not worth working for these wages, we'll all benefit because there will be a bigger demand for pilots. So, do us all a favor, quit your job and make sure you get another 10,000 or so of your buddies to do the same thing.
 
BrokenWing said:
Do a little research on free market economies and supply and demand. If I can't get the neighborhood kid to mow my lawn for $20 then I have to find the $ amount that will attract someone to mow my lawn. However, if there are way too many kids willing to mow my lawn for $25, I will eventually find one who will do it for $20 (or maybe less). The sad truth is that until there are not enough pilots willing to work for these wages, we will continue to be paid these wages. When you (and thousands of others) decide that it's not worth working for these wages, we'll all benefit because there will be a bigger demand for pilots. So, do us all a favor, quit your job and make sure you get another 10,000 or so of your buddies to do the same thing.


Wow. Touched a nerve did I? Very sad.
 
800Dog said:
Some of which are in bankruptcy because pilots at other airlines, including Jetblue, are willing to the job for half the pay and benefits. Welcome to the industry.


When are all you guys gonna get it? It's not the individual pilots that are to blame - it's management!!! They take advantage of people that are furloughed, fired, or have all of their loans to pay off and have no other job skills to rely on. This thread, and many others, demonstrate managements' most potent tool - get the pilots to fight each other!! That way we can't/won't concentrate on fighting them as a cohesive, concentrated unit. If there ever really comes into being a union that can focus all pilots at all airlines into fighting with one voice against the management units that exploit us - that would be an awesome day! ALPA, Duane Woerth - FEH!!!!!! They got nothin'!
 
One thing everyone ought to be able to agree on is that except for a few bright spots (SWA wages, Airtran B Fund, United B&C Fund), the compensation/retirement for legacies and LCCs alike is absolutely terrible. Regardless of who brought who into the toilet, that's where you are. The finger pointing is the only thing I'm sure wont improve the situation.
 
Thankfully someone above mentioned the free market factor in the rise and demise scenario. Who'da thunk it possible that the poor financing, the high prices, and the low demand on a route, being overserved by aircraft that are inefficient, with the highest paid pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, and rampers could possibly fail??? We blame each other, yet our management structures at each of these airlines are fully at fault, then giggle as their misdeeds are diminished by our bickering. I left that world and joined in at what I thought was utopia at the lcc. It is a much better life for me. Steady growth, upgrade in the next six months(6 years in), steady pay increases, and great bosses that I am not ashamed to cheer for(not gloat, like my coworker so famous on this board). Yes there are issues here, but I am productive, I fly good equipment that gets fixed when its broke, my financial success is reflected in the efficiency of the operation, and the vast majority of my coworkers are motivated to do an excellent job. I have experienced legacy pilots refuse vans because I was in them as a lcc pilot, and as a commuter puke. I have heard the statement "when you get to a real airline" from TWA guys that are now going to be my fo's in a few months. I have experienced furlough, paycut, and lockout/liquidation. How different are we? Does a number on a W2 make you a better man, or a better pilot?

This is a sad thread altogether. I hope that the legacies recover, and their people get their rates back. I hope that they continue to provide the quality service in their cabins that I would like to have when I go on a vacation somewhere my company doesnt fly. Hell, I bought tickets for my wife and two kids to fly on JB next month to my home town. Im kinda glad to have the opportunity to watch a little tube and keep my little guys busy for the trip.

Nothing good comes from watching this industry turned on its head. When one company falls, sure there's another there to pick up the load, but how long is it till they are on the block as well. Remember how SWA used to be the media darling? How Jetblue gets it now, and SWA gets hammered for not having tv? We all know how it goes, who's next?

Jetblue pilots will eventually want their cut of the pie, just like SWA pilots. There eventually will be a bargaining unit in place to make that happen Im sure. Its a rite of passage. My only wish is that instead of everybody just reading "hard landing", they'd pick up a copy of the "Art of War" and give it as much attention. We have met the enemy, and he is us.
 
tailhookah said:
Hey Relief...

Hypocrisy???? Try competing against airlines that continue to be allowed to operate indefinitley in bankruptcy... is that fair that the JetBlue employees have to lose money on profit sharing due to the fact that some of our major competitors flounder in bankruptcy???? I think not.

Tail

What would B6 be doing differently with a competitor not in CH11? What would be the big change to turn the company back to the strong buy? I am very curious as to how you see the company operating in an enviroment that the was different. Is is not to B6's advantage that at JFK DL is in BK? There has to be some stigma associated with the BK for the DL bookings and with a major pulldown in ASM's by DL compared to last year this in effect gives B6 a opportunity to compete in a fewer seat enviroment.

With your large prescence at BOS who other than Dl at BOS is in BK to hurt you? Who do you compete with on most segments from BOS? AA?

B6 may not be the problem for all the major carriers woes but BK rules is also not what propelled B6 from the top of the earning heap. IMO, it is the growth that has hurt B6 from the standpoint of two airplane types and cost assoicated with getting in and out of several markets.
 
800Dog said:
Did it ever occur to you that they had to accept significant paycuts in order to compete with the LCC pilots? Did it ever occur to you that the LCC pilots tossed their principles by accepting a job for 1/2 of what others do the job for? I hope you have few mirrors in your home!

If you really believe this you are grossly misinformed. Please compare the pay rates at the top 6 legacy carriers to those of two or three LCC's. The pay rates at SWA, for example, were much better than half. Until the last 6-8 years the market share of the LCCs was not significant enough to be responsible for their downfall. Try reading Hard Landing.
 
Chest Rockwell said:
If you really believe this you are grossly misinformed. Please compare the pay rates at the top 6 legacy carriers to those of two or three LCC's. The pay rates at SWA, for example, were much better than half. Until the last 6-8 years the market share of the LCCs was not significant enough to be responsible for their downfall. Try reading Hard Landing.



SWA aside, if you compare other LCC compensation to that of the top legacy carriers before all the pay cuts, they were working for 1/2 the pay and benefits. Remember, there is more to compensation than just pay rates. Even SWA was well below. Again, I never said this was the cause for the cuts at the legacy carriers. It was however a contributing factor.
 
800Dog said:
SWA aside, if you compare other LCC compensation to that of the top legacy carriers before all the pay cuts, they were working for 1/2 the pay and benefits. Remember, there is more to compensation than just pay rates. Even SWA was well below. Again, I never said this was the cause for the cuts at the legacy carriers. It was however a contributing factor.

Why do you get to toss LUV aside for your argument? They are over 4000 strong and represent more market cap than the entire industry. They defined the segment and are 35 years old.

The truth is that you need a tangible focus for all that frustration and JB and select others are your lightning rod regardless of how logical.

Juice
 
Keydet said:
I don't know, I think the idea of paying dues to ALPA for 30 years, only to have them drop you like a bad habit when you retire as the management of your old company guts your retirement is a little silly, too.



Perhaps...But at least they HAD a retirement to begin with. Can we say the same?


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
Mr. 800Dog Man,

Once the LCC's mature, you may see the compensation packages at those companies evolve into the same or more then what you see at the standard legacy carrier as long as they remain profitable. In any business, things take time to grow and the infrastructure needs to be there before the costs can go beyond certain levels. You don't seem to like facts that don't fit your twist on reality though. You just want some one else to blame; look in your mirror my friend.
 
32LT10 said:
What would B6 be doing differently with a competitor not in CH11? What would be the big change to turn the company back to the strong buy? I am very curious as to how you see the company operating in an enviroment that the was different. Is is not to B6's advantage that at JFK DL is in BK? There has to be some stigma associated with the BK for the DL bookings and with a major pulldown in ASM's by DL compared to last year this in effect gives B6 a opportunity to compete in a fewer seat enviroment.

With your large prescence at BOS who other than Dl at BOS is in BK to hurt you? Who do you compete with on most segments from BOS? AA?

B6 may not be the problem for all the major carriers woes but BK rules is also not what propelled B6 from the top of the earning heap. IMO, it is the growth that has hurt B6 from the standpoint of two airplane types and cost assoicated with getting in and out of several markets.

32,

As it was explained to me DL needed to charge $200, for example, per pax to fly from NY to FL. They charged $100. DL operating in bankruptcy seemed to charge fares well below what they needed to in order to sustain themselves and make a profit. It seems that DL has been acting for quite some time without any regard for common sense. This is not a defense of our operation or an attack on theirs, just an opinion.
 
Lake Alice said:
32,

It seems that DL has been acting for quite some time without any regard for common sense. This is not a defense of our operation or an attack on theirs, just an opinion.
Lake:
You'll get no argument from any DL pilot/employee there! Our management team wrote the book on incompetence. For ex: DFW! Let's try to compete with AA using rj's to the west coast and beyond! Brilliance, sheer brilliance...
737
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom