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Wndshr,
Ok, what? You and Speedbird must be really close friends, because you are both sharing the same drug pipe. I am glad that you seem to be able to see the future (drug induced again) and see what will happen to our pay rates. Well, we probably won't change our rates for at least 5 years (due to the new contract), and maybe a couple after that. I guess you are right---partially...??? As far as lowing our rates and increasing yours---you and I have no idea what will happen in this industry. We both don't really know what will happen. I do know that if Delta chooses to look at labor for more givebacks, they will likely go to the non-contract people first, since they don't have a say in the matter. We really haven't even seen yet what our givebacks will do for the company, since they have just realized the savings over the last pay checks in mid Jan. We have changed a lot at Delta in the past couple days---and we are making "core changes" according to Grinstein, who is a heck of a lot smarter than both you and me.
So, again, tell me when you and your UNION will ask for higher rates for the E190? Will it be near or shortly before your 5 year mark interview? I bet it won't! Take care guys!
Big G....
my point is this....none of us know what the future will bring ala 9-11...however, i find it rather amusing when someone finds themselves "qualified" to remark on payrates....AND those who find themselves "qualified" are most likely to endure more pain in the relatively near future....granted if delta can become profitable with your 1 Billion in givebacks....rest assured your rates are good for the next five...however, ask the UAL pilots if they thought they were going to be making less than a LCC airbus Capt and i think they would have thought you were on something!
you of all people with industry experience should know this...the rest of LCC bashers don't have industry experience yet, and it becomes predictable nonsense...until of course they get an interview!
as far as the UNION comment: is ALPA doing a real good job now????? Hmmmm....my airline pilot mag is talking a lot about age 60 issues, pensions are going going "gone"?? and pay/productivity is at an all time LOW...ask your retirees how they feel about ALPA...ask your furloughees coming back on line soon how they feel about ALPA.
you ever heard of the saying "no one will take better care of your kids than you..." the same goes with airline management. the minute the harvard grads become ceo's....watch OUT!
Bye Bye--General Lee[/QUOTE]
Ok, what? You and Speedbird must be really close friends, because you are both sharing the same drug pipe. I am glad that you seem to be able to see the future (drug induced again) and see what will happen to our pay rates. Well, we probably won't change our rates for at least 5 years (due to the new contract), and maybe a couple after that. I guess you are right---partially...??? As far as lowing our rates and increasing yours---you and I have no idea what will happen in this industry. We both don't really know what will happen. I do know that if Delta chooses to look at labor for more givebacks, they will likely go to the non-contract people first, since they don't have a say in the matter. We really haven't even seen yet what our givebacks will do for the company, since they have just realized the savings over the last pay checks in mid Jan. We have changed a lot at Delta in the past couple days---and we are making "core changes" according to Grinstein, who is a heck of a lot smarter than both you and me.
So, again, tell me when you and your UNION will ask for higher rates for the E190? Will it be near or shortly before your 5 year mark interview? I bet it won't! Take care guys!
Big G....
my point is this....none of us know what the future will bring ala 9-11...however, i find it rather amusing when someone finds themselves "qualified" to remark on payrates....AND those who find themselves "qualified" are most likely to endure more pain in the relatively near future....granted if delta can become profitable with your 1 Billion in givebacks....rest assured your rates are good for the next five...however, ask the UAL pilots if they thought they were going to be making less than a LCC airbus Capt and i think they would have thought you were on something!
you of all people with industry experience should know this...the rest of LCC bashers don't have industry experience yet, and it becomes predictable nonsense...until of course they get an interview!
as far as the UNION comment: is ALPA doing a real good job now????? Hmmmm....my airline pilot mag is talking a lot about age 60 issues, pensions are going going "gone"?? and pay/productivity is at an all time LOW...ask your retirees how they feel about ALPA...ask your furloughees coming back on line soon how they feel about ALPA.
you ever heard of the saying "no one will take better care of your kids than you..." the same goes with airline management. the minute the harvard grads become ceo's....watch OUT!
Bye Bye--General Lee[/QUOTE]
General, and all--
I try, I really try, to stay away from these perceived food fights. In this case, I cannot simply retreat to my normal lurking and comments made to myself and the sleepy cats.
General, you attempt to state facts. Ok, I'll give you that. The EMB pay rates are out there, and they aren't great--a fact, believe it or not, that many many of us brought up to the managment when the latest contract was rolled out.
I thought your post illogical because I can't envision anyone staying on the EMB for 12 years when they could move to the 320. Is that move unreasonable? Your statement is not "non-factual,' but certainly is inflammatory. If that is your point, then you succeeded, thus the defensive remarks. If not, then I missed what you were getting at.
The answer to this pay issue? It's twofold. First, we are counting on the EMB's making money and creating a potential great RASM for the routes they are assigned. That should lead to a pay increase once the jet has proven itself. Our management has said repeatedly that the last thing they want to do is publish an unsustainable pay rate and then retract it (gee, does that actually happen?). Our management has not done anything thus far that would make me distrust them, so I'm frankly not worried about the long term. Will I keep track of what's happening with regard to pay? Absolutely. Am I on kool-aid? Well, it ain't all that bad, boys and girls. Is it sustainable? Ask me in ten years--I'm doing my part to make it happen, I can tell you that.
Second, the numbers work for a new hire going to the 190 (or an FO with less than one year on property) to earn more than an Airbus FO over the course of the first three years. At that time the 190 pilot will likely be able to move to the Airbus. That is not too difficult a concept to grasp.
Finally, General, you inadverdently made an interesting point about "raising the bar" for three years until the pay had to be rolled back under threat of BK. Is that how it is supposed to work? Raise your own pay, and that of everyone in the company, until the company is unable to sustain itself, collapsing into a heap of difficult pay and furlough decisions? If raising the bar drives your company into bankruptcy, what good did you do yourself in the long term? Does one really believe that the increase in pay for a few years until the BK takes hold makes up for the hundreds on furlough and pay cuts in the near future? (ok, I know that pay is only one factor in the overall financial health equation of an airline. But let's face facts: increasing pay to become the "industry leader" is a great cause, but isn't it possible to negotiate a deal that is detrimental to the overall health of the company during tough times?)
And let's not lay the blame on JetBlue for the downfall of man--let's face it...There were problems in the industry long before we came to the game. This is not trying to simplify the issue; I fully acknowledge that we LCCs are now an economic force that are creating an increased competitive environment. It just seems that the old "JetBlue is lowering the bar" argument is a bit tiresome and does not adequately address the true issues of why the industry is in the state we are in.
Other than that, I'm having a nice night with a glass of wine. I eagerly await the next full frontal assault on my intelligence and manhood. And by the way, my paws are increasingly hairy as well, General!
Well, the back of them, anyway...
I try, I really try, to stay away from these perceived food fights. In this case, I cannot simply retreat to my normal lurking and comments made to myself and the sleepy cats.
General, you attempt to state facts. Ok, I'll give you that. The EMB pay rates are out there, and they aren't great--a fact, believe it or not, that many many of us brought up to the managment when the latest contract was rolled out.
I thought your post illogical because I can't envision anyone staying on the EMB for 12 years when they could move to the 320. Is that move unreasonable? Your statement is not "non-factual,' but certainly is inflammatory. If that is your point, then you succeeded, thus the defensive remarks. If not, then I missed what you were getting at.
The answer to this pay issue? It's twofold. First, we are counting on the EMB's making money and creating a potential great RASM for the routes they are assigned. That should lead to a pay increase once the jet has proven itself. Our management has said repeatedly that the last thing they want to do is publish an unsustainable pay rate and then retract it (gee, does that actually happen?). Our management has not done anything thus far that would make me distrust them, so I'm frankly not worried about the long term. Will I keep track of what's happening with regard to pay? Absolutely. Am I on kool-aid? Well, it ain't all that bad, boys and girls. Is it sustainable? Ask me in ten years--I'm doing my part to make it happen, I can tell you that.
Second, the numbers work for a new hire going to the 190 (or an FO with less than one year on property) to earn more than an Airbus FO over the course of the first three years. At that time the 190 pilot will likely be able to move to the Airbus. That is not too difficult a concept to grasp.
Finally, General, you inadverdently made an interesting point about "raising the bar" for three years until the pay had to be rolled back under threat of BK. Is that how it is supposed to work? Raise your own pay, and that of everyone in the company, until the company is unable to sustain itself, collapsing into a heap of difficult pay and furlough decisions? If raising the bar drives your company into bankruptcy, what good did you do yourself in the long term? Does one really believe that the increase in pay for a few years until the BK takes hold makes up for the hundreds on furlough and pay cuts in the near future? (ok, I know that pay is only one factor in the overall financial health equation of an airline. But let's face facts: increasing pay to become the "industry leader" is a great cause, but isn't it possible to negotiate a deal that is detrimental to the overall health of the company during tough times?)
And let's not lay the blame on JetBlue for the downfall of man--let's face it...There were problems in the industry long before we came to the game. This is not trying to simplify the issue; I fully acknowledge that we LCCs are now an economic force that are creating an increased competitive environment. It just seems that the old "JetBlue is lowering the bar" argument is a bit tiresome and does not adequately address the true issues of why the industry is in the state we are in.
Other than that, I'm having a nice night with a glass of wine. I eagerly await the next full frontal assault on my intelligence and manhood. And by the way, my paws are increasingly hairy as well, General!
Well, the back of them, anyway...
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I see a resemblance in the conversation between Eagleflip and the General not unlike me trying to explain to my 3 and 5 yr old why they can't have ice cream before they have their supper. Eagleflip, I am quite sure the intelligence of your post will be lost in his childlike intellectual way of rationalizing his original post on this thread.
General Lee
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IB6 UB9,
Ha! This from a guy with a childish name on Flightinfo. Explain your name to your kids why don't you? I am sure they would love to know it's origin. Again, you really don't bring much to any argument, since I just stated facts and you became defensive.
Eagleflip,
Hey, I have hairy hands, what's wrong with that? So, let me explain this again to you. Please do not fall into the "Management vs labor" trap----we offered the company a 10% pay cut at least a year prior to anything major happening. That could have helped plenty. Then, they sold off the fuel hedges---again, something that we did not do to them. Our pay scales were high, and we offered lower, but they wanted a lot lower and it got very close to the brink. Please don't blame only our pay scales, since every other employee at Delta could have had their wages cut without any negotiations. Make sense yet?
I am not trying to assault your intellignece, since I now believe you have a lot more than IB6 UB9, and you actually try to use logic in your arguments, and I respect that. But, you need to see that what my pilot group did was for the BENEFIT of everyone. The problem with your pilot group is not the pilots within, but the LACK of power to negotiate your WORTH. Yes, I can see that your low fare model has limitations when it comes to pilot pay. Sure, that makes sense. But, what about 12 year Captain rates on the E190? If they have the pay rate, they expect someone to be there someday. Yes, it might change in a few years, but that current pay rate now affects EVERY REGIONAL PILOT out there, since your 100 seaters are a lot bigger than every other regional plane out there. How can an ASA pilot now bargain for a pay raise, when Jetblue's 100 seat rate is lower than Comair's 70 seat rate? The Jetblue pilots of TODAY don't really see that 12 year EMB rate, since you all expect to be senior A320 Captains by then. That attitude will kill everyone else. You pushed the problem on someone else. That is the deal here. I am glad that you are happy with Jetblue, and it seems like a fun airline. Great. As far as Delta goes, we are in the middle of huge change, and we are just now realizing the pay cuts and how they will help us in the future. Nobody knows exactly what will happen---like you said another 9-11 etc----but we are trying to head back upwards and it won't be easy. But, we have done something huge---and that is started to CHANGE and to evolve. It isn't as easy for us because we aren't just a domestic LCC---we have other parts----and it may take awhile. But, we have started the process....
Bye Bye---General Lee
Ha! This from a guy with a childish name on Flightinfo. Explain your name to your kids why don't you? I am sure they would love to know it's origin. Again, you really don't bring much to any argument, since I just stated facts and you became defensive.
Eagleflip,
Hey, I have hairy hands, what's wrong with that? So, let me explain this again to you. Please do not fall into the "Management vs labor" trap----we offered the company a 10% pay cut at least a year prior to anything major happening. That could have helped plenty. Then, they sold off the fuel hedges---again, something that we did not do to them. Our pay scales were high, and we offered lower, but they wanted a lot lower and it got very close to the brink. Please don't blame only our pay scales, since every other employee at Delta could have had their wages cut without any negotiations. Make sense yet?
I am not trying to assault your intellignece, since I now believe you have a lot more than IB6 UB9, and you actually try to use logic in your arguments, and I respect that. But, you need to see that what my pilot group did was for the BENEFIT of everyone. The problem with your pilot group is not the pilots within, but the LACK of power to negotiate your WORTH. Yes, I can see that your low fare model has limitations when it comes to pilot pay. Sure, that makes sense. But, what about 12 year Captain rates on the E190? If they have the pay rate, they expect someone to be there someday. Yes, it might change in a few years, but that current pay rate now affects EVERY REGIONAL PILOT out there, since your 100 seaters are a lot bigger than every other regional plane out there. How can an ASA pilot now bargain for a pay raise, when Jetblue's 100 seat rate is lower than Comair's 70 seat rate? The Jetblue pilots of TODAY don't really see that 12 year EMB rate, since you all expect to be senior A320 Captains by then. That attitude will kill everyone else. You pushed the problem on someone else. That is the deal here. I am glad that you are happy with Jetblue, and it seems like a fun airline. Great. As far as Delta goes, we are in the middle of huge change, and we are just now realizing the pay cuts and how they will help us in the future. Nobody knows exactly what will happen---like you said another 9-11 etc----but we are trying to head back upwards and it won't be easy. But, we have done something huge---and that is started to CHANGE and to evolve. It isn't as easy for us because we aren't just a domestic LCC---we have other parts----and it may take awhile. But, we have started the process....
Bye Bye---General Lee
On Your Six
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TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
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Eagleflip said:
Everybody is understandibly sensitive to criticism of their own company, and even of any painting of facts that might appear to be critical. No news. In that respect, JetBlue pilots are no different.
It's also understandable that JetBlue pilots might be even more sensitive than the average FlightInfo participant given that they've perhaps gotten more than their fair share of the criticism. (Emphasis on perhaps)
That being said, it's really shallow of any of you to attempt to defend the E-190 pay rates. Eagleflip, you correctly remind us that "many of [you]" expressed to management your displeasure with the published rates. The thing is, though, what was done?!?!? Did those rates change? If they DID, it's news to all of us.
So, there they are. If you're not proud of them, we understand. Just stop gettin' your panties in a wad (nuthin' personal, it's directed at all JetBlue pilots) when somebody reminds you of the rates.
Didnt that darn Southwest CEO recently say something to the effect of .. We offer low fares due to increased efficiency, not by lowering wages and reducing customer service.... That pretty much sums it up fellas.. Pilot pay doesnt have much to do with the whole big scheme of things.... Negotiate the best you can get baby..!! Your crazy if you think this isnt how the whole deal works... no matter how much Kool Aid they shove down your throat...
Hey General.....Keep up the good work !... Anybody got some trash I can pick up ?
That 190 pay is too low.... ASA would be a better deal from what I understand. At least you wouldnt be relegated to flying in and out of Buf all day.... LOL... Who knows... maybe ASA will get buses and they'll paint em green....
Hey General.....Keep up the good work !... Anybody got some trash I can pick up ?
That 190 pay is too low.... ASA would be a better deal from what I understand. At least you wouldnt be relegated to flying in and out of Buf all day.... LOL... Who knows... maybe ASA will get buses and they'll paint em green....
pilotyip
Well-known member
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190 pay may be low compared to the 320, but it is better than almost any regional pay in the 90-100 seat range. And did not JB do something everyone has been yelling for intergrate the senority list between the feeder and the mainline? Now the regional feeder pilot can bid by senority into the 320 and 330 when they get them. Sounds like a good deal to me.
AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
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- Nov 25, 2001
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- 1,764
I'm sure the dozen or so furloughed pilots at my ANG unit without prospects of returning for at least another several years (AA still actively furloughing...WFTO?) might not be so offended by helping the FAs run a broom down the isles during a turn. Did it ever occur to anyone that some of the "kool aid" that guy lap out so eagerly at the LCCs is because they haven't furloughed any pilots?
I've said this before on here... If you want a "traditional" airline career, i.e. pensions, more conventional work rules, etc then roll into UPS or FedEx. If you are want to go somewhere where the "cool aid" flows, then SWA or jetBlue might just be your cup of drink. However, those of you who take pot shots at the pilot force for not having "legacy" style lifestyles need to remember that your companies are currently bleeding money at an unprecented rate, and 10-20% of your pilot force is currently unemployed.
If I were at a legacy, I'd be watching these companies with the high level of esprit and asking my company AND my union how we could find a way to A-increase moral and customer care and B-find a way to eek out some more profit for all of us to fight over on the next round of negotiations.
I've helped over 100 guys get on the property at JetBlue. Know what they ALL had in common? NONE of them ever had a chance to get hired at Delta, American, United, Continental, US Air, or Northwest in the last 3 years. Why? You know why....THEY AREN'T HIRING RIGHT NOW! So...a guy trying to feed his family has few choices. One is they can roll with the flow at an LCC, try the "we are a family/team" kool aid, and see if it works for them. If its not, they can find another job inside or outside of aviation. However, raising Cain with those who are employed at LCCs for "lowering the profession" is nothing less than smugly whistling past a graveyard while your own carriers burn either company or tax payer dollars as they either prepare for or struggle through Chapter 11 proceedings.
The PILOTS didn't cause this--the internet revolution and a changing economy eliminated the walk up business fare that carried the legacies for years. Everyone is the market faces price pressure, and companies will now use discount travel agencies and/or other means to find lower priced fares. 9/11 added additional stresses and barriers to travel which made business travel on the airlines even less appealing. You are now getting $300 for a ticket you got $800 for a few years back. That's life, that's business, and now we all have to figure out how to adjust.
Yeah...I'd love to have been a Pan Am Captain around 1968. You had the world in your hands. Those days are gone. I'd love to tell you how great I have it in the freight business, but DHL and a host of others are only going to make the UPS/FedEx duopoly keep our eyes on the horizon as well.
General...you know who I think undermines the profession? Those types who pick up extra flying (green slips or whatever they are called at your company) while their bros are on furlough. THAT is the ultimate back stabber...not that SWA guy taxiing past you at 30 knots or that jetBlue crew hustling to get an airplane back into the air in 25 minutes to generate some more revenue.
Standard disclaimers...just a fighter pilot and may be wrong....
I've said this before on here... If you want a "traditional" airline career, i.e. pensions, more conventional work rules, etc then roll into UPS or FedEx. If you are want to go somewhere where the "cool aid" flows, then SWA or jetBlue might just be your cup of drink. However, those of you who take pot shots at the pilot force for not having "legacy" style lifestyles need to remember that your companies are currently bleeding money at an unprecented rate, and 10-20% of your pilot force is currently unemployed.
If I were at a legacy, I'd be watching these companies with the high level of esprit and asking my company AND my union how we could find a way to A-increase moral and customer care and B-find a way to eek out some more profit for all of us to fight over on the next round of negotiations.
I've helped over 100 guys get on the property at JetBlue. Know what they ALL had in common? NONE of them ever had a chance to get hired at Delta, American, United, Continental, US Air, or Northwest in the last 3 years. Why? You know why....THEY AREN'T HIRING RIGHT NOW! So...a guy trying to feed his family has few choices. One is they can roll with the flow at an LCC, try the "we are a family/team" kool aid, and see if it works for them. If its not, they can find another job inside or outside of aviation. However, raising Cain with those who are employed at LCCs for "lowering the profession" is nothing less than smugly whistling past a graveyard while your own carriers burn either company or tax payer dollars as they either prepare for or struggle through Chapter 11 proceedings.
The PILOTS didn't cause this--the internet revolution and a changing economy eliminated the walk up business fare that carried the legacies for years. Everyone is the market faces price pressure, and companies will now use discount travel agencies and/or other means to find lower priced fares. 9/11 added additional stresses and barriers to travel which made business travel on the airlines even less appealing. You are now getting $300 for a ticket you got $800 for a few years back. That's life, that's business, and now we all have to figure out how to adjust.
Yeah...I'd love to have been a Pan Am Captain around 1968. You had the world in your hands. Those days are gone. I'd love to tell you how great I have it in the freight business, but DHL and a host of others are only going to make the UPS/FedEx duopoly keep our eyes on the horizon as well.
General...you know who I think undermines the profession? Those types who pick up extra flying (green slips or whatever they are called at your company) while their bros are on furlough. THAT is the ultimate back stabber...not that SWA guy taxiing past you at 30 knots or that jetBlue crew hustling to get an airplane back into the air in 25 minutes to generate some more revenue.
Standard disclaimers...just a fighter pilot and may be wrong....
dlredline
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2003
- Posts
- 310
Albie,
As always, a very insightful and thoughtful post. Too many times we have people post from the comfy confines of an ivory tower they think permanently places them above all others (one of your own freight brothers seems to relish denigrating LCC everytime the topic is raised, the same guy who told a Fedex applicant this past fall that their hiring policy was what it was and wasn't going to change, so deal with it - good advice if he's willing to take it himself). I was once in that same tower, and the fall from the top is harder the higher you get. It's a chocolate/vanilla argument, and there is enough diverisity of aviation opportunites out there to satisfy anyone's personal and professional desires.
Many of us have been on both sides of the fence, and the newhire experience level is remarkable (and unfortunate at the same time). I'm thrilled that people like yourself are happy on the freight end, people like GL are happy at their legacy, and others enjoy their career at their respective LCC. Generalizing any single group of pilots as uninformed (as some do here) because of their choice in careers doesn't serve any argument. Unless you walk a mile in someone's shoes, it's impossible to understand each individual's situation.
Here's hoping we can get back on topic, namely "hairy hands".
Red
Hang on a sec, let me check . . . nope, no wadded panties here . . .
As always, a very insightful and thoughtful post. Too many times we have people post from the comfy confines of an ivory tower they think permanently places them above all others (one of your own freight brothers seems to relish denigrating LCC everytime the topic is raised, the same guy who told a Fedex applicant this past fall that their hiring policy was what it was and wasn't going to change, so deal with it - good advice if he's willing to take it himself). I was once in that same tower, and the fall from the top is harder the higher you get. It's a chocolate/vanilla argument, and there is enough diverisity of aviation opportunites out there to satisfy anyone's personal and professional desires.
Many of us have been on both sides of the fence, and the newhire experience level is remarkable (and unfortunate at the same time). I'm thrilled that people like yourself are happy on the freight end, people like GL are happy at their legacy, and others enjoy their career at their respective LCC. Generalizing any single group of pilots as uninformed (as some do here) because of their choice in careers doesn't serve any argument. Unless you walk a mile in someone's shoes, it's impossible to understand each individual's situation.
Here's hoping we can get back on topic, namely "hairy hands".
Red
Hang on a sec, let me check . . . nope, no wadded panties here . . .
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Thanks Falcon Jet, I thought my math was "fuzzy" Yes, 96 bucks is a big difference compared to "my" 111 (PAID AT 150%) Although a low wage, it is still better than a regional carrier and think it will improve.
Just curious however, how much flying do you guys do at JetBlue? I would imagine 84 is about average at a low cost carrier?
How much flying do you guys average at DAL?
I currently work for a regional airline, and I hope to move on to a higher paying airline. Many however are very happy here and have no intention of leaving. I however think making 96 bucks per hour (84 hours) after a year or so is a significant improvement, especially when compared to my 69 bucks after 7 years at a regional! So if offered, I would go work for JetBlue in a second.
Just curious however, how much flying do you guys do at JetBlue? I would imagine 84 is about average at a low cost carrier?
How much flying do you guys average at DAL?
I currently work for a regional airline, and I hope to move on to a higher paying airline. Many however are very happy here and have no intention of leaving. I however think making 96 bucks per hour (84 hours) after a year or so is a significant improvement, especially when compared to my 69 bucks after 7 years at a regional! So if offered, I would go work for JetBlue in a second.
Falconjet
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- Mar 28, 2002
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Fuzzy math
Bid: Can't answer your question about how much jB folks fly, I don't work for them. I just thought the numbers looked fuzzy so I jumped in. I think even 96 per hour for a 12 year Captain at a Major is pretty low, but that is simply my opinion. Hopefully those rates will go up sooner than later.
Also, if you can make more money by biting the bullet and taking the 190 instead of the 320 (Blue Dude and Eagleflip's posts), what does that say about the rates on the 320? Not too good either. Also, why does the plane have to prove itself in order for the pilots who fly it to be reasonably compensated for their labor? Just some questions to ponder.
I know a few guys who work at jB and they are by all accounts very happy with their career choice. I wish them and the rest of the jB crewforce the best.
FJ
Bid: Can't answer your question about how much jB folks fly, I don't work for them. I just thought the numbers looked fuzzy so I jumped in. I think even 96 per hour for a 12 year Captain at a Major is pretty low, but that is simply my opinion. Hopefully those rates will go up sooner than later.
Also, if you can make more money by biting the bullet and taking the 190 instead of the 320 (Blue Dude and Eagleflip's posts), what does that say about the rates on the 320? Not too good either. Also, why does the plane have to prove itself in order for the pilots who fly it to be reasonably compensated for their labor? Just some questions to ponder.
I know a few guys who work at jB and they are by all accounts very happy with their career choice. I wish them and the rest of the jB crewforce the best.
FJ
General Lee
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PHXflyer,
You have no clue what I do in my personal life. I don't "live" aviation exclusively, but I really enjoy it. Sure, I spend some time on this forum, and I have been on it for years. But, I do what I enjoy, and that is a good thing.
Albie,
A lot of what you say does make sense, and the greenslip deal is a hot subject. When we had 1300 furloughs out and a schedule that was lacking, then I believe it wasn't the best thing to greenslip. Those extra flights should have been flown by our furloughs. Now, we are calling back people and our schedule has jumped, and we are very very short. Yes, someone over at the G.O. didn't see this coming apparently, but now some people need to greenslip to keep this ship going. I want everyone back as soon as possible, and I also want every flight to go out and try to bring us a profit. It will be a lot better when TBKane is back on the property, and that is everyone's goal here. We are maxed out with training due to losing 980 Captains last year, and we still expanded our flying schedule. We have an interesting problem indeed.
Bye Bye--General Lee
You have no clue what I do in my personal life. I don't "live" aviation exclusively, but I really enjoy it. Sure, I spend some time on this forum, and I have been on it for years. But, I do what I enjoy, and that is a good thing.
Albie,
A lot of what you say does make sense, and the greenslip deal is a hot subject. When we had 1300 furloughs out and a schedule that was lacking, then I believe it wasn't the best thing to greenslip. Those extra flights should have been flown by our furloughs. Now, we are calling back people and our schedule has jumped, and we are very very short. Yes, someone over at the G.O. didn't see this coming apparently, but now some people need to greenslip to keep this ship going. I want everyone back as soon as possible, and I also want every flight to go out and try to bring us a profit. It will be a lot better when TBKane is back on the property, and that is everyone's goal here. We are maxed out with training due to losing 980 Captains last year, and we still expanded our flying schedule. We have an interesting problem indeed.
Bye Bye--General Lee
AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
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- Posts
- 1,764
...then throw the greenslip proceeds (after taxes, etc) into a furlough fund... Yeah yeah...you'll suck up making 150 times my the rate...but only for the team. They NEED you to do this, and you are only doing it for altruistic purposes...
BS.
Or...keep the darn money. I really don't care. But don't bash the guys who are working other places for LESS while you help create a new class of home depot employees.
BS.
Or...keep the darn money. I really don't care. But don't bash the guys who are working other places for LESS while you help create a new class of home depot employees.
General Lee
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Albie,
You obviously don't know how this works or what we should do now that we ARE calling back furloughs. Our TRAINING facilities are MAXED OUT. Can you understand that? We lost 980 Captains in 12 months. Those replacements are in the sims right now trying to upgrade. We need them first. In the mean time, should we call back people and pay them to sit? Maybe you didn't see our last quarter loss? Think rationally please. I am their BIGGEST advocate at Delta---I really am. But, if we don't make some money soon, and that usually means flying ALL of the flights, then they won't come back period. The greenslip pay was also reduced from double time to time and a half. And, there are limits now to what pilots can fly in a "quarter"---so as to limit major abuse.
So, to state this again----we are recalling pilots as fast as we can with the sims full. We don't have a lot of extra money lying around to pay people to sit or to rent other sims. Our management initially stated NO RECALLS this year, and Dalpa showed them that we needed some back, and now 125 more will return by mid Summer. Then we added an extra 81 flights a day to ATL alone. So, come up with a better plan.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Doesn't Fedex greenslip while guys stay on the FE panel for years? Hmmmmm. Don't do it----and let the FEs (like yourself) move up faster....... (Yeah, I saw your bid---but that wasn't the case 6 months ago)
You obviously don't know how this works or what we should do now that we ARE calling back furloughs. Our TRAINING facilities are MAXED OUT. Can you understand that? We lost 980 Captains in 12 months. Those replacements are in the sims right now trying to upgrade. We need them first. In the mean time, should we call back people and pay them to sit? Maybe you didn't see our last quarter loss? Think rationally please. I am their BIGGEST advocate at Delta---I really am. But, if we don't make some money soon, and that usually means flying ALL of the flights, then they won't come back period. The greenslip pay was also reduced from double time to time and a half. And, there are limits now to what pilots can fly in a "quarter"---so as to limit major abuse.
So, to state this again----we are recalling pilots as fast as we can with the sims full. We don't have a lot of extra money lying around to pay people to sit or to rent other sims. Our management initially stated NO RECALLS this year, and Dalpa showed them that we needed some back, and now 125 more will return by mid Summer. Then we added an extra 81 flights a day to ATL alone. So, come up with a better plan.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Doesn't Fedex greenslip while guys stay on the FE panel for years? Hmmmmm. Don't do it----and let the FEs (like yourself) move up faster....... (Yeah, I saw your bid---but that wasn't the case 6 months ago)
General Lee
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No, he could have actually took some time to figure out exactly what is happening at other companies and not preaching when it was happening at his OWN company. I am sure those FEs at Fedex loved the panel for YEARS.
English,
His opinion was correct 2 years ago, but not now. Ours is now a TRAINING issue. And, we just increased our flying 6%---81 flights alone each day in ATL. The greed part has been taken out really, and now we just need pilots to fill the schedule, and at the same time are maxed out with our sims. We didn't forget our furloughs, and we are bringing more back now thanks to Dalpa. The greenslip rate was cut also. Jetblue has time and a half for overtime just like we do now. Should we just cancel our new expansion to wait for all of the furloughs to come back when there is sim time available? That wouldn't help out at all. I know you are getting furloughed at Aloha, and I hope you get back soon.
Bye Bye---General Lee
English,
His opinion was correct 2 years ago, but not now. Ours is now a TRAINING issue. And, we just increased our flying 6%---81 flights alone each day in ATL. The greed part has been taken out really, and now we just need pilots to fill the schedule, and at the same time are maxed out with our sims. We didn't forget our furloughs, and we are bringing more back now thanks to Dalpa. The greenslip rate was cut also. Jetblue has time and a half for overtime just like we do now. Should we just cancel our new expansion to wait for all of the furloughs to come back when there is sim time available? That wouldn't help out at all. I know you are getting furloughed at Aloha, and I hope you get back soon.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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General Lee
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You guys have no clue what I do for our furloughs. I sponser a few, and take them out on a regular basis. I, along with everone else at Delta, help pay for their Cobra benefits, and have done so willingly since 9-11.(the Union doesn't help them Mogambo???) I pay for secret Santa stuff for furloughs, and have done other benefits when people needed money for medical problems. Should we set up another fund to give greenslip pay to furloughs? I don't know if that is the answer, but not flying flights that may help our struggling company back to health is NOT the answer. We are bringing back our pilots, and until recently none were coming back this year---but now at least 125 will. With the lack of sims available and the expanding schedule, this should be easy to see-----and obviously it is not for a lot of you. We help our furloughs more than most companies in our situation, and we also took a lot of the "greed factor" out of greenslips by slashing the rates.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
English
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General Lee said:
Actually you are way off General. I am not in any danger of being furloughed. That's because my union did something Delta did not do - they did not allow a system to be put into place that allows, or forces, pilots to pick up extra flying while pilots are on furlough. That has never happened at Aloha and probably never will. Aloha pilots contractually cannot pick up open flying. It just doesn't exist.
When it became apparent that concessions would be vital to the survival of our company, our union negotiators ensured that the hit would be shared equally by all. None of that "pilots eating their young" going on over here. In fact, our senior (and many junior) pilots are sacrificing for our most junior pilots to prevent them from being furloughed. Several early retirements are being discussed, people are taking flex leaves, leaves of absence and military leaves - all to keep as many people on property as possible. And some pilots have even started taking up a collection for the pilots we already have furloughed.
So, General, not every pilot group out there is as greedy as you say. We at Aloha also help the company save fuel, help clean the cabin (voluntarily) and taxi quickly. Does that mean we are sellouts, or just interested in our company being successful?
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General Lee
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Well English, obviously you don't know the HISTORY of our airline. We actually were sued and LOST---in court----for stopping overtime flying--in our contract 2000 days. We LOST. They sued us for interrupting status quo. I know that sounds stupid----but it happened---thanks to the State of Georgia Court. The company also sued about 100 pilots for $100,000 each, and eventually that was dropped. So, we cannot even put anything out there in print etc without losing again. We can't. Now, I guess we could just not put in for greenslips. That makes sense. But, the result would be huge Inverse Assignments, which actually pay DOUBLE (not time and a half like greenslips), and make a pilot who really wants to just go home (after a long 3 or 4 day) and MAKES THEM continue to fly against their wishes usually. So, which is better? The flights will go regardless. Make them look for people who don't want to fly (voluntarily) and pay them double (to lose more money), or to allow pilots who want to fly overtime and pay them less and save the company money---since that flight is going out regardless. Make the call. We only have so much sim space available with all of the retirements----and we have a new schedule adding 6% new flying to help our company bring in more revenue. Which would you pick knowing all of that now?
And, I don't know where you got that I thought people were sellouts for taxiing fast or saving fuel? We do the same to some extent. You didn't read about our new "clockwork" operation? We have plenty of people that are working harder now to get the planes out faster and ontime. We, the pilots, are included in that process. Also, it is good to hear that you won't be furloughed.
Bye Bye--General Lee
And, I don't know where you got that I thought people were sellouts for taxiing fast or saving fuel? We do the same to some extent. You didn't read about our new "clockwork" operation? We have plenty of people that are working harder now to get the planes out faster and ontime. We, the pilots, are included in that process. Also, it is good to hear that you won't be furloughed.
Bye Bye--General Lee
8vATE
Cruel, Nice, Whatever
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Dear mr GENERAL LEE...
Why don't you back off your continual monopoly of these boards...?
Or go stay on a DELTA only topic or thread?
I believe you are going to find very little interest or sympathy for you and your Delta peers...
You guys rode the gravy train to the end..... and now you all are still bleeding cash, have a training backup and SONG to save you...
Quit sticking your "opinion" in to every freaking thread about every freaking topic on the board.... And it always seems to come back to Delta this or Song this.......
Who cares...?
You guys are "defending the profession" so suck it up and free up some space for everyone else....
Why don't you back off your continual monopoly of these boards...?
Or go stay on a DELTA only topic or thread?
I believe you are going to find very little interest or sympathy for you and your Delta peers...
You guys rode the gravy train to the end..... and now you all are still bleeding cash, have a training backup and SONG to save you...
Quit sticking your "opinion" in to every freaking thread about every freaking topic on the board.... And it always seems to come back to Delta this or Song this.......
Who cares...?
You guys are "defending the profession" so suck it up and free up some space for everyone else....
#1 Windmilling
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