jetblue

[Dizel8]

No, the contract does not prohibit a union.

As far as the contract is concerned, it is available on the net, it is no deep dark secret. Heck, do a search on Yahoo, it shows up at the top.

 

[TonyC]

No, the contract does not prohibit a union.

As far as the contract is concerned, it is available on the net, it is no deep dark secret. Heck, do a search on Yahoo, it shows up at the top.

Good idea... I did as you suggested.

Yahoo web search for "Jetblue pilot contract"

First 20:
1. APAPDP - Pilots Defending The Profession
2. JetBlue Orders 100 Jets in $3B Contract
3. http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.doc (MICROSOFT WORD)
4. JetBlue Airways Case Analysis
5. Delta Furloughed Pilot Web Site
6. ATTENDING AIRLINES
7. 10-Things That Every Airline Pilots Should Know About Scope (PDF)
8. Pilot Employment News
9. Pilot Employment News
10. Globeinvestor.com: Fitch Downgrades Delta Air Lines` Senior Unsecured Debt to `B`
11. JS Online: JetBlue Orders 100 Jets in $3B Contract
12. AIR, Inc.
13. PC Mall Wins Va. Supplier Contract
14. [Iww-news] Anger Building Among Airline Workers
15. jetcareers.com: Think your vote doesn't count?
16. Turner: Institutions: Commentary: Low-cost airlines find the skies are relatively friendly
17. AP Wire | 06/10/2003 | JetBlue Orders 100 Jets in $3B Contract
18. AP Wire | 06/10/2003 | JetBlue Orders 100 Jets in $3B Contract
19. The Jobs Page
20. The Jobs Home Page

Any other ideas?

 

[English]

It's on the apapdp website.

Tony, that would be the first selection in your results string.

 

[TonyC]

It's on the apapdp website.

Tony, that would be the first selection in your results string.

OK... so I do the Yahoo search, I click on the first result, and I get to read the PDP Update for Friday, December 12, 2003. Not helpful.

Yes, the contract appears to be on that website, but as I stated above (in reference to 80drvr's link), it's in a ZIP file that I can't read on this computer.

Still lookin....

 

[Dizel8]

I am sorry TonyC, I told you were it was, but the fact that you cannot zip files, kinda reminds me of this:

A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The man below replied, "You are in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude.

"You must be an engineer," said the balloonist.

"I am," replied the man, "but how did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost."

The man below responded, "You must be a manager."

"I am," replied the balloonist, "how did you know?"

"Well," said the man, "you don't know where you are or where you are going and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault."

 

[TonyC]

Thanks, anyhow Dizel8. I reckon I'll hafta wait 'til I get home.

Until then, perhaps I could find a way to continue this exchange with you so we'll be graced with more occurrences of your Avatar....

 

[Skank]

Posted by Yaks:
Since no jb moron had the balls to answer the mans question which is the only point I was trying to make, I will have to try. There is an employment contract you must sign as a condition of employment. It means you are an employee until the contract is up (5 years) at which time if neither party does anything it automatically renews for another 5 years. The contract stipulates pay rates of $72/hr for captains and $36/hr for fo's. (Currently paying more but not obligated to, which means if tomorrow they decide that is what they want to pay you that what you will get.) Don't know all the specifics since the pilots were either too stupid to read it or too embarrassed to admit some of the other more onerous aspects. I am certain there are a myriad of behaviors which will warrant you immediate dismissal like trying to organize. So forget about a union should you ever decide to contest any policy the management wishes to implement (the current "benevolent" group or any future bunch) because at the very least your contract will be allowed to lapse and not renewed ensuring there will be no rabble rousers on the property.

Another interesting aspect of the pilot group is their attempt to get a waiver for jb to exceed the 8 hours of flying in 24 rule so that they can fly Long Beach turns. I guess thats great for them. They can fly really long days and diminish the safety margin so they can make a few extra bucks and set a precedent for all the other airlines to point to when trying to push their pilots productivity beyond the already marginal rules currently in place.

I am sure there are others but I am getting disgusted with the whole bunch and don't feel like dwelling on it any more. Incidentally, I have never been a finger pointer with regards to any other company (though I do have reservations about a few of the crappier commuter operations) lowering the bar. The business is the way it is and competition will create trying times for every company at some point. But the incompetence, negligence or outright malice shown by jb pilots has inspired my first gesture in their direction.

[B..........is beyond me and part of my problem with them.

Second, while I still have grave reservations about the use of any employment contracts and some specific provisions in the jb contract, there does appear to be some wiggle room although I would not want to foot the legal bill to prove it.

Third, I would like to apologize to the jb pilot group in general (skank, ib6, dlred and a few others excepted since it seems to apply in their case) for my earlier name-calling. My thanks to A320drvr, DGS and the like for renewing my faith in the group.

My animosity generally stems from the fact that when someone asks a legitimate question an infamous few seem to always respond with sarcasm and ridicule, or get defensive and tell people how stupid they are for questioning the jb management.

The AA contract of 03 is a pig any way you dress it up. I feel we did what we had to do to make the company competitive given the current environment, but there is not a lot to be happy about there. Nonetheless I would never belittle anyone for asking about its provisions or having an opinion for or against it. It no longer affects me since I was gone as of 03/04. I have secured other employment (I pulled my jb paperwork after a little research into the hiring practices) and am reasonably happy with my position so don't interpret this as embitterment or anything like that.

Again I apologize to the good guys for letting the toads get to me. [/B]

Yaks,
I'm sorry that you posted the above. How can we have a dialogue with that for an introduction?

 

[yaks]

If you read the first post to the thread "negatives to jetblue" you will find a legitimate question. Here are some of the responses to potracks question before any unpleasantness on my part took place:

How about that folks don't have anything better to do than try to dig up dirt. This post is just like a USA Today article that some schmuck wrote. He found DOT complaints and wrote the whole article about the complaints listed. Let's try to be original...

Yaks, I sell (sniff, sniff) grapes (sniff, sniff) yeah thats it......sour grapes!

No chance for ALPA here, I'm crushed Yaks (may I suggest avoiding those beer bongs and that yaking should clear right up).

Not another (yawn) JB hater and naysayer trying not so desparately to hold his emotions in check. You are right though...it totally sucks over here...I am part of an organized group of non-professionals trying without a doubt to bring down the industry by lowering wages, changing FAR's, etc.

Yaaawn . . . I'm sorry, yaks, were you talking? I couldn't hear, too busy doing my part to lower the profession. Gotta get back to it . . .

I'll see your bite me, and raise you an Inda-ass. While we're on the subject of total jerkoffs...

So you'll have to excuse me if I get a little ticked. Any negativity on my part stems from the animosity shown to anyone who asks anything deeper than "what are the hiring minimums".

Maybe I am being obtuse so lets try a different tack. Say it is 1999 and American is hiring like a crazy. Some major airline pilot- to-be asks the same question about AA and my response mirrors those posted above. Anybody think AA pilots would be perceived as bastions of integrity?

 

[IB6 UB9]

But that is not the case. Your true colors have shown through too may times and I think you have established your distaste for our company. So what do you expect? Go ahead...bash away...you sound like you lack education and I get a kick out of your ignorant comments.

 

[colorado418]

But that is not the case. Your true colors have shown through too may times and I think you have established your distaste for our company. So what do you expect? Go ahead...bash away...you sound like you lack education and I get a kick out of your ignorant comments.

I second, third and forth the above comments. Yaks, you have kind of shown what you think of jetBlue from the get go. Don't try to cry a sad story now. If you want to know more, apply. If not, let it go.

 

[blahshmah]

Get some help Yaks.

 

[TonyC]

OK, now I know where the balloon is....

There is not any specific stipulation in the JETBLUE AIRWAYS EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT FOR PILOTS that specifically disallows the formation of a union. However, the first numbered paragraph, EMPLOYMENT AND TERM, clearly leaves the impression that JetBlue can terminate your employment (at the end of the five year contract) for no reason at all, provided they simply give you 3 months' notice. So I guess one could speculate that if you're going to organize, plan on either being successful or seeking alternative employment when your 5 years is up.

Interesting.

I can also see how Paragraph 3. D. might influence a pilot's "desire" to organize:

D. Merit Pay. The Airline, at its option, may increase the hourly pay of the Pilot above the minimum hourly rates listed herein based on the Airline’s evaluation of the Pilot’s performance. When and if the Airline increases the Pilot’s hourly rate, the Pilot will be notified in writing of such increase.

Any attempts to organize, or any cooperation with organizers, could be rewarded in the Merit Pay column.

Also interesting....

Originally posted by Skank
The contract stipulates pay rates of $72/hr for captains and $36/hr for fo's.

The Contract I'm looking at shows Regular Rates of $110.49 per hour for 1st Year Captains, and $50.96 per hour for FOs. Max at 10 years are $126.46 per hour and $113.00 per hour.

Originally posted by airbaker
We can't because I believe it violates our non-disclosure agreement on public forums.

From the Agreement:

17. NONDISCLOSURE. The Pilot agrees, during or after the term of this Agreement, not to disclose to any firm or person, including but not limited to other air carriers, any information, except as otherwise required by law, including but not limited to, information about the Airline, or its affiliates and customers, which is treated as confidential by the Airline or an affiliate, to which the Pilot has gained or gains access by reason of the Pilot’s position as an employee of the Airline.

The Pilot recognizes that the disclosure of confidential information by the Pilot may give rise to an irreparable injury to the Airline, which may not be adequately compensated by damages. Accordingly, in the event of a breach or threatened breach by the Pilot of this section of the Agreement, the Airline shall be entitled to an injunction restraining the Pilot from disclosing, in whole or in part, the confidential information defined herein, or from rendering any services to any person, firm, corporation, association, or other entity to whom such confidential information, in whole or in part, has been disclosed or has threatened to be disclosed. Nothing herein shall be constmed as prohibiting the Airline from pursuing any other remedies available to the Airline for such breach or threatened breach, including the recovery of damages from the Pilot. The undertakings in this provision of the Agreement shall survive the termination or ancellation of the Agreement or of the Pilot’s employment.

I'm no lawyer, but I don't see how the Employment Agreement is "information about the Airline, or its affiliates and customers, which is treated as confidential by the Airline or an affiliate." I see no markings on the Document that would indicate the company considers it confidential. Furthermore, I fail to see how revealing the terms of the Agreement would "give rise to an irreparable injury to the Airline, which may not be adequately compensated by damages."

So, where does disclosing the terms of employment violate the Nondisclosure clause? (Or is that confidential?)

 

[Dizel8]

"The Pilot agrees, during or after the term of this Agreement, not to disclose to any firm or person, including but not limited to other air carriers, any information, except as otherwise required by law."

Pretty much sums it up, I think!

 

[TonyC]

Don't be ridiculous !

"The Pilot agrees, during or after the term of this Agreement, not to disclose to any firm or person, including but not limited to other air carriers, any information, except as otherwise required by law."

Pretty much sums it up, I think!

Not to be argumentative, but that does not sum it up at all. You see, the Agreement does not have a period where you placed one. There is a comma followed by a great deal of descriptive language which qualifies "any information." If the statement actually appeared in the Agreement as you have it written, it would include disclosing the departure times of scheduled flights, the gate from which flights would depart, and the type of airplanes JetBlue flies.

What kind of airplane do you fly? - - "Sorry, I can't disclose that - - it's 'any information'."

Where does this airplane go? - - "Sorry, I can't disclose that - - it's 'any information'."

Well, it's easy to see the absurdity of such an assertion.

To simplify the sentence for ease of understanding, allow me to offer a more accurate paraphrase.

"The Pilot agrees not to disclose ... any [confidential] information ... about the Airline ... which [he] ... has gained ... by [being] an employee of the Airline."

Now, convince me the Agreement is treated as Confidential when it isn't even marked as such.

 

[jetblue320]

OK, now I know where the balloon is....

There is not any specific stipulation in the JETBLUE AIRWAYS EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT FOR PILOTS that specifically disallows the formation of a union. However, the first numbered paragraph, EMPLOYMENT AND TERM, clearly leaves the impression that JetBlue can terminate your employment (at the end of the five year contract) for no reason at all, provided they simply give you 3 months' notice. So I guess one could speculate that if you're going to organize, plan on either being successful or seeking alternative employment when your 5 years is up.

Guess what, they can terminate you anytime they want, period. In the time I have been there, which is from Day One, no one, repeat, no one has been terminated for any single unjust cause unless it was drugs or alcohol. And in the case of the latter, quite a few cases (non-pilots included) have been sent to rehab at no expense or ramifications.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone who does not want to work for JB gives a sh1t about our contract. Let it rest man. If a perspective employee wants to know before he "wastes" his time applying, read it, it's on the web and a child can figure it out.

C yaaa

 

[TonyC]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone who does not want to work for JB gives a sh1t about our contract. Let it rest man. If a perspective employee wants to know before he "wastes" his time applying, read it, it's on the web and a child can figure it out.

C yaaa

I'm not sure why you're all riled up about this. If you'll read the entire thread, you might notice a theme. One guy wants to know why the contract isn't available, another guy says "Yea, why isn' it?" and they're met by a barrage of "It's none of your business" from guys who are supposedly so happy with their jobs. Why so defensive?

The same guy that says "It's none of your business" turns around and explains "forget about a union ... because at the very least your contract will be allowed to lapse and not renewed ensuring there will be no rabble rousers on the property."

That piqued my curiosity - - I looked for the contract - - couldn't UNZIP a file - - looked some more, asked around, and was told a cute story of an engineer and a manager. You know, managers, those guys JetBlue pilots are in love with.

SO, anyway, I get home, Unzip the file, read for myself that such is indeed the case. An unusual 5 year renewable contract. Of course, any employee without a contract can be terminated without cause. That's a risk of being an at-will employee. But this contract allows for termination without cause, and without recourse.

My balloon comment was in reference to the balloon anology - - engineer and manager.

My analysis of the contract was straightforward, and more objective than Dizel8, who apparently thinks he can't divulge the location of the crew base.

So, why the flames? Did I do the interpretation an injustice? Was I inaccurate in the analysis? Did I paint you in a negative light? What's the big deal? I didn't come here to start a fight, I just got interested in a question that was asked, but nobody seemed willing to answer.

Lighten up, willya?

 

[Skank]

Tony, your point is taken, but since it is an individual contract with the company, and not a collective bargaining agreement, it is up to each individual as to how to interpret the language you describe above. I'm sure you can understand the hesitation that some of us feel, especially in light of some of the enlightened comments that we read every day (some of which are posted above).

 

[Dizel8]

No Tony, there are plenty of things I can tell you about jetBlue, including but not limited to bases, aircraft, routes etc. I can even tell you what I think of the company, but my interpretation differs from yours and hey, its is a free country.

Here is a litmus test, why don't you send a request to the company for a copy of the contract and see what they say?

 

[MercuryPilot]

I signed my contract and put it in the mail to Dean on Monday. -There's nothing in it that worried me in the least. To be honest, I felt like I'd won the lottery when I got it in the mail.

More Blue Koolaid please!

MP

 

[TonyC]

Here is a litmus test, why don't you send a request to the company for a copy of the contract and see what they say?

I'm not much into litmus tests - - about all they're good for is determining the acidity/alkalinity of a liquid. Jet Blue could decline to send me a copy of the Agreement for PLENTY of reasons other than confidentiality, so their refusal to do so wouldn't settle this difference of opinion. Besides, I have no desire to do the research to find out who to call or write, and it's probably in some ZIP file, anyway. (<-- humor, OK?)

Listen, I have no horse in this race, so to speak. I'm happy where I am, you're happy where you are, and I'm happy for you. An interseting topic came up on a public forum, I joined in the discussion. I didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings, OK?