JetBlue to Make Major News Announcement

[FlyDeltasJets]

Red,

Let's just put it this way: It makes me VERY nervous.

However, I also believe it is the wave of the future.

We have to be very careful with it. When we gave permission for mgt to enter into the agreement, it came with certain stipulations that management must follow. These include a growth of block hours. On the surface, that should protect us.

Of course, we have a no furlough clause too, and I haven't flown a Delta plane for over a year!

I guess we'll see how well this works.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

FDJ,
The reality sinks in, this is basic Econ 101, high labor costs? Move the work to a labor force that is cheaper. This is N.A.F.T.A. at work, except it's not necessary to move the "shop" to Mexico, when you have another cheap labor force in place already(Regionals). Your(Mainline) choice is hard, it's gonna cost and will be painful:
1) Reduce your wage/benefit structure to "Regional" rates(ouch!)

2) Increase "Regional" wage/benefit structure to a rate that makes it non-economical to shift flying away from "Mainline" via strikes and support to the extreme for "Regional" issues (ouch).

All the scope and/or contract stipulations will only be a finger in the dike, we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars at stake here and they have lots of shifty laywers looking for a chink in your armor. They are relentless and will not stop until they have us(all) flying for minimum wage, then they will argue minimum wage does not apply to R.L.A. employees, and will take even that away too.
Lets summarize, companies want billions in profit, they have the politicians ears (McCain, Pres Bush etal).
What do we have , "Major" pilots fighting with "Regional" pilots over scope, "Majors" competing with each other for wage consessions, "Regional" companies competing for "contracts", using doom and gloom to scare pilots into wage consessions.
Sounds like divide and conquer to me.

Sun Tsu- " to win a battle with out fighting is the truest victory".

Corp bean counters will not be happy until the A/C are staffed by 1st year and newhire pilots who paid for training, with a payscale that goes for 3 years till topping out @ min wage +3%(1% increase per year).
Good Luck
PBR

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

PBR,

I agree wholeheartedly in helping regional pilots secure better PWA's. I have never stated any differently.

When and until we do so, however, we MUST continue to negotiate language in an attempt to limit mgt's ability to outsource flying.

You say scope is a finger in the dyke. I say that there will ALWAYS be a less expensive pilot group. Scope is the only thing we have to protect our jobs from them.

Fight for high salaries. Fight just as hard for scope to protect them. We did a good job on the former. We screwed the pooch on the latter.

 

[roman]

Wait a minute -- FDJ, you are furloughed? Have you applied at jetBlue? Would you be interested in working for us? I am curious.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

No, I have not applied to Jetblue. While they are a fine company, and people who work there enjoy it, I have no desire to leave Delta. Delta was my dream from boyhood, and I firmly believe that I am in the best place I can be for the future. Although it sucks now, I wouldn't trade with anyone.

Now I know that JB does not require seniority resignation, but knowing that I want to go back to Delta, I am trying to use this furlough to do things I would not have had the opportunity to do, some of which is preparing me so I won't be so dependent on my airline income.

There is also some degree of competitive pride at play! I feel like I got hired by the Yankees. Even though I'm on the DL, I wouldn't want to leave for the Angels or Diamondbacks, even though they have done well lately. I'm still a "Yankee!"

(I think you can see where my baseball loyalties lie!)

Of course, a few more years of this, I might be singing a different tune!

 

[roman]

I feel the need to inform you that the Yanks were no-hit this week.

(A joke - and meant to slam the Yanks - not Delta. I bleed Philly red - and have very little blood left after the teams they have fielded over the years)

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I know!

Like Delta, the Yanks are not exacly performing up to my expectations this year!

I still believe, though! (on both counts)

 

[PBRstreetgang]

FDJ,
You are gettin'it now, there will always be someone willing to 'ho themselves for a pilot job, thats evident(PFT).
The key is limiting their ability to access the workforce, a union that strictly controls new membership, so as to not saturate the workforce and create a glut of worker bees. The above union must represent all it's membership equally and with vigor! Scope is not necessary if all the pilot group is paid on an even scale/formula with similar benefits, based upon an agreed A/C rate schedule.
The key is dependent upon removing managment's economic incentive to shift flying, as long as it is cheaper to pay laywers to break/circumvent your contracts and shift flying to the cheaper labor group they will.
I fly the CRJ, my best friend flys the 75-76 for a major airline, you ask so what? We do the same basic job, except he is paid 5X my annual rate in cash and the retirement/other bennies are not even laughingly comparable. His(AA) is currently furloughing, mine(SKYW) is hiring. Wake up and smell the coffee, you will continue to lose flying, and SKYW will pick it up and pay me even less(newTA), SKYW and DAL will split the difference in profits. The reality of this is 10 years from now all mainline flying will be done by "contract" companies.
Prior to 9/11 is saw the CEO addressing the ATA on CSPAN2 late night on an overnight, He said" At UAL we could make some real money if we could get rid of the flight ops group" I almost $hit myself, the horror of the 80s-90s temp agencies was coming to the airline industry. 9/11 allowed a legion of laywers to bring this upon us, and we are too foolish to take note, instead we busy ourselves with tiny details like scope which will have no effect except to divide the pilot groups, which will allow the mgmt. teams to achieve their goals, increased profits.
Step back, look past those trees that are blocking your view of the forest. This is huge and will not stop here. This is not without precident just look at the Temp employment agency industry and you will see the eerie parallels. SKYW just inked an 11 year deal w/UAL and I cant imagine a deal wDAL will be much further away. If you are lucky DALPA will strike a deal requiring SKYW to allow furloughed DAL pilots Captain/supersenority slots, what a deal, you get to fly 50-99 seat A/C for 2 year old 50 seat rates. Our bennies-
no retirement, poor 401(k), crappy work rules(and getting worse everyday), oh yes the coupdegra, contract with UAL,DAL,CAL, that can be cancelled with minimum penalities. Effectively reseting your and my senority to 0, but I hear MESA will be offering prefferential interviews to all furloughed pilots.
Think this can't happen? Ask a Westair pilot sometime how his interview with SKYW went.
PBR

 

[furloughed dude]

FDJ,

I previously worked for the second highest paying airline. It was my dream job as well. I don't think I will get back in several years (I was a 99 hire). I don't know what will happen, but I don't see folks at Delta getting hired back for some time either. Both of our companies are looking at renegotions, and I think both will sell out on both wages and more importantly, productivity. I have applied at Jetblue and other corporate jobs. I am not willing to surrender my seniority, but there is a very good chance that I would choose to stay a company like Jetblue.....

I guess what I am saying is don't ever doubt that your union will sell you out.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Furloughed,

I don't doubt it. But I also work to decrease the likelyhood.

PBR,

Your proposal is interesting, and I don't discount it out of hand. Please give me some more info, including:

1. A realistic strategy for achieving it.

2. A solution to the fact that there are many non-union and non-ALPA airlines (as you know).

3. A solution to the fact that some airlines are able to pay more than others. The way I see it, your proposal would either a: lower payrates at the more financially stable airlines, or b: cost jobs or even lead to liquidation of the weaker carriers.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

1. A realistic strategy for achieving it.
A basic concept, one pilot, one vote. All pilots support each other during labor disputes

2. A solution to the fact that there are many non-union and non-ALPA airlines (as you know).
The promise of no furloughs, and senority for life. If you want to work for a regional and want to sleep at home you can do that and make a living and a retirement too! Trans-cons your bag you can do that too! Everyone gets what they want.

3. A solution to the fact that some airlines are able to pay more than others. The way I see it, your proposal would either a: lower payrates at the more financially stable airlines, or b: cost jobs or even lead to liquidation of the weaker carriers.
A single national payscale for equipment types, economy would come from scale and efficiency of the "corperations"
Yes pay at the top paying airlines would come down, but how much are you losing
each month on furlough, if you averaged the amount lost per month and applied to the months working you would have a more realistic earnings picture.
Someone on furlough please run some rough numbers, don't forget retirement numbers and lost years earning potential too.
PBR

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

PBR,

Your post was heavy on potential benefits, but decidedly light on strategies. We already have "one pilot, one vote." We already do support each other during labor disputes.

Your idea has merit. Unfortunately, it has been touted many times before, but few have any realistic solutions on how to implement it.

I am not putting you down, I am genuinely interested. I just have yet to hear anything that would convince me your idea is realistic. I am willing to learn, however.

P.S.
I would run some rough numbers, but since I have no idea how much each pilot would make under your proposal, they would be very rough indeed!

 

[jetblue320]

No, I have not applied to Jetblue. While they are a fine company, and people who work there enjoy it, I have no desire to leave Delta. Delta was my dream from boyhood, and I firmly believe that I am in the best place I can be for the future. Although it sucks now, I wouldn't trade with anyone.

Now I know that JB does not require seniority resignation, but knowing that I want to go back to Delta, I am trying to use this furlough to do things I would not have had the opportunity to do, some of which is preparing me so I won't be so dependent on my airline income.

Of course, a few more years of this, I might be singing a different tune!

FDJ,

I applaud your loyalty and admire your values. Me, being a senior member at JB have seen a few guys (a small few that is) "use" us as a means of either a stepping stone or as temporary income until they get recalled. Although the recall is not likely anytime soon, the concept grinds me to no end. I feel very stongly about this because not only are these types ripping off JB for training costs, etc. but they are robbing someone that really wants to be here (for the long haul) of an opportunity. Your statement about DL being your boyhood dream says it all and I respect you greatly for your honesty and dedication to your beliefs.

For the record, you were coorect when you said JB does not require a new hire to surrender his/her seniority because legally, it means nothing anyway. We (the Recruitment Team) researched the legal ramifications and discovered that even if a New Hire had done that, we have no "hold" on them anyway. Something about the Right To Work state laws or some such legal bilge applied. What we do however, is have them sign a No Compete Contract which states that the New Hire cannot return to their former employer (and that is former employer only) for a period of two years. If they do, they owe us for training costs or something like that. This type agreement, IS legally binding and according to our legal counsel, the best way to protect us.

As far as you coming to JB sometime in the future (assuming things don't pan out at DL, and I hope they do for you) I know now that you are of the right culture and moral values that we seek in our Pilots.
You see, they way I look at it is that you can teach a monkey to fly an A320 but you can't teach a person moral values if they don't at least meet you half-way!!

Take it easy.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

"Your post was heavy on potential benefits, but decidedly light on strategies. We already have "one pilot, one vote." We already do support each other during labor disputes."

Strategy comes after the need for action, I agree implimentation would be the difficult part, what I have is an idea, theory or concept which comes from years of work in non-aviation industries. By support I mean work stoppages in the event of a strike, not just sympathy and small check /assesment(Comair comes to mind).ALPA has poisoned the minds of more than a small percentage of the pilots that they represent(RJDC?) ALPA is oriented towards the mainline operation and its pilots, our payscales(regional), work rules are direct proof. As the ranks of the mainlines decrease and the regionals increase, those are your jobs being given to newhire regional pilots, who are a fraction of your costs.

"Your idea has merit. Unfortunately, it has been touted many times before, but few have any realistic solutions on how to implement it".
See above.

" I am not putting you down, I am genuinely interested. I just have yet to hear anything that would convince me your idea is realistic. I am willing to learn, however."

The idea is just that, the reality would come from the people who are losing their jobs, ironically this would benefit the mainline pilots the most, by removing the mainline managment's ability to move flying to the low cost regionals, your job would be preserved, the regional pilot would benifit from increased wages and benefits. The corp. mgmt would benefit from stable, level employee costs without the need to negotiate constantly increasing labor contracts.

" P.S.
I would run some rough numbers, but since I have no idea how much each pilot would make under your proposal, they would be very rough indeed!"

Payscales would be negotiated, for arguement's sake, take the highest paid 737 scale, LUV's scale split the difference, bias up or down a few percent and you would have a starting point. The basic concept would be: each passenger seat on an aircraft would pay a specific value to the pilot pay scale, things such as time zone flying, international, cycles, transcons, all could have an override/enhancment to the payscale assigned to each airframe. Benefits are another variable but set these aside for the moment, they would ultimately be the real issue. (Take DAL pilots benefit package and compare to SKYW package, this is the real reason you aren't working and SKYW is hiring as we speak.)
Run your own numbers based upon your equipment and pay scale at the time of your own furlough, how long will you be out, estimate and voila, an example.

Ultimately the people whom this would affect the most are the ones whom are currently the most insulated, the top 20% of the senority lists at each carrier.
You are paying the same price as the regional pilots(lost wages and benifits) to insure that minority from financial loss, until you are in that group you will continue to subsidize their 2nd, 3rd homes and hobbies/toys with your days at home without pay. Its not that the industry has changed, the entire economy has changed. To think that the aviation industry is insulated is not realistic. Look at every other industry in the current economy, for example Dewalt(Black&Decker) has closed one of it's U.S. plants firing 1200+ employees, to relocate that plant in Mexico, what were they seeking? Per their press release, lower employee costs to increase their competitiveness. Adapt or perish, your company is betting that you will stick to your old way of doing things, that makes it easy to counterplan it's strategy to maximize profits, you's guys have been doin' it the same way for the last 50 years. Your predictibility makes you a slow moving easy target.
Hint: read sun tzsu "The Art of War " not the movie, I have 6-7 different translations and they are all slightly different in how they read, but the message is the same. It is 2500 years old and is still relavent.
PBR