JetBlue Staffing of the EMB's

[General Lee]

Speedbird is speechless. Man that was easy.

Dizel8,

I like the avitar. Anyways, when you said that Song or Delta Connection miles under the American Eagle codeshare are not redeamed on NWA-- I think that is correct. The AA Eagle codeshare stuff in LA is not really DCI or SONG---and that is expected. Someday we will replace that flying with actual DCI flying--like Comair and ASA. But, that doesn't mean Song flights aren't redeamable on NW and CO---the AA eagle flights aren't.
I still don't know why we have them as a code share partner--I guess we are waiting for more RJs to arrive.

How would you know if we were losing money on our LA flights? We will have 22 a day from the LA basin to ATL---and that means a lot of seats, but the basin has what? 10 Million people? Every time I fly in there we are full--and on the 767-300 that means spread out revenue and lots of cargo. Now that we can carry next day air mail for the USPS--we fill those things up, along with bags and a lot of special cargo too--like fish from ANC--SLC--LAX.
I guess we can't make any money on any flights according to some people---even though we had a $31 million operating profit in June.

Yes, we have to bring our costs down, and we are not totally changing over to the dark side--I mean the LCC. We still have premium seats and fares waiting for the economy to return and people wanting a better product. We won't go totally towards Song, but we will offer that to the price concious consumer--and that will help out. We do really well on the Business Elite service from Europe to the US---and we always fill first class to LA and high density markets. The passengers out there aren't only the super frugal small business folk that Jetblue might serve due to low fares, there are also high end passengers. We have Song to take care of the price concious ones, and mainline first class to fly the lawyers who expense it to their clients, and the middle managers who want the frequent flyer points etc. We will not totally turn into a LCC, and we will cut back where necessary to cover the extra costs and become more competitive in some markets---but not all--like ATL to Munich. Watch out--Airtran will fly their 737NG's there next!!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

I think the General is making some good points. It's too early to write off Song. Once it has 35+ 757s equipped with new TVs flying the same routes as Jetblue, then you can make a comparison. From what I have heard, Song is doing better than initial projections.

P.S. Yonkers does SUCK! Sorry to any of the Jetblue guys who live there...

 

[FL717]

We have like 12 757's on Song right now, and we will have 36 by December--flying to sunny warm places from the NE and FLA (LAS and SJU etc too). The summer time probably wasn't the best time to start, but the winter time will yeild results.

I think that the summertime is actually the BEST time to start the service to those destinations on SONG. It brings name recognition and capacity on those routes now (whether at a loss or not) so that you are poised when winter does roll around. Those routes are like shooting fish in a barrel during the wintertime. Yours and everyones load factors will be thru the roof, as you already know from flying Express..

Now heres the million dollar question?? What will be your yield on those routes with SONG on the 757? It didn't work with the 737-200 with Express.

That will decide success or failure.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

DAL continues to live under the premise, that there is no room for competetion and that all other must be destroyed. I suppose, a monopoly would be nice, one could charge outrageous fares

Ahhhh.....The good ol' days.

 

[Blue Dude]

"I know this wasn't directed at me General, but I'll reply anyway. You can research this if you want (it's public info) but we didn't change the ATL-LGB routes to once a day because they were losing money, it was so we can make MORE money on other routes."

That is such B.S. You guys really believe everything your management says, don't you?... Why would you almost exit a market (drop 66% of flights) with an 83% load factor?

I'll probably regret getting into this, but I'll respond anyway. It's pretty simple, General. JetBlue is both making money and in a position to make more money elsewhere. You already know that LGB is very slot constrained, so it's crucial to get the most bang for the buck for every one of those slots. ATL might have worked as a real money machine, but it didn't, mostly because you were willing to double capacity on that route. So rather than let egos get in the way of good business, they've decided to give one slot over to FLL and the other temporary one up to Alaska this fall. Yes, Delta's actions were a big part of this decision, so you can claim victory if you like. However, JetBlue netted a profit on this route, and it's very unlikely that Delta did anything other than bleed. Try as you might, you can't fill seats below your cost and then make it up in volume (AA found this out on JFK-OAK). And the pain will just keep coming since your yields won't come back overnight. In fact, with JetBlue and AirTran still in the market, they won't ever come back again. OAK is next, and we're not slot constrained there. I wouldn't brag too much if I were you.

Now we will have the correct plane (757) flying 199 people to warm destinations--with a better frequent flyer program and a better selection of airports to depart from. You never respond to those---those are your weaknesses.

You are correct, those are JetBlue's weaknesses compared to a large network carrier like Delta. Those are also JetBlue's strengths from a cost standpoint. Operating from three airports in close proximity and providing a global frequent flier program both cost you significantly. At the same time, the lack of such service does not affect JetBlue's customer acceptance in the slightest. Song seems to think that it's worth it, but it's early yet. Perhaps if JetBlue matched such amenities, it would draw additional customers, but the cost of doing so would likely be more than it would be worth. So use what advantages you have to differentiate yourself; it's what we're doing. Too bad we'll never see Song's numbers to tell for sure.

 

[Dizel8]

Actually, I understood it to read that neither Song nor AEagle miles can be used for travel on NWA. Not that it makes much difference.

Secondly, I did not say DAL was loosing money to LAX, I said they probably were. Fact vs opinion Opinion based on the fact, that DAL doubled the frequency once jetBlue and Airtran entered the market. If it is such a money maker, why not do it prior to that.
The proof will be, if DAL maintains the frequency.

As far as Song is concerned, like I said, I think it is a great concept. Does it make money, who knows? DAL, like with DLEX, does not release the numbers for Song. That is neither good nor bad, that is just the way it is.

 

[General Lee]

Blue Dude,


You and I do not know what the profit margin or loss potential on the ATL--LA basin routes are for Delta. I am sure they were a lot more profitable before, but maybe they are making a small profit. The chances that all of this has increased the market awareness (the Cabs in LA are now adorned with Delta ads reading "La Basin to ATL--22 times a day") for Delta is likely. There are also something like 10 million people living in LA, and maybe our flights are doing very well. Same goes with OAK. Sure, the fares were probably higher before and profits more, but all of these West coast cities we are talking about have high end people---and probably high end passengers too who like free trips to Palm Beach in First class. Who knows?

Giving people a selection in NYC is important---it is the second largest city in the world--after Mexico City. The passengers in Manhattan would rather drive to closer LGA than JFK--unless they take the Carey Bus (or Shame Train) from Grand Central for $25.
Most prefer LGA or EWR from Manhattan--and people will eventually try Song out if the fares are the same, both have TV, and a frequent flyer program exists. Let's just wait until we get it up to 36 757's and TVs are in--then we should compare.

Dizel8,

I agree with you. Let's wait and watch this one carefully and see how it goes. Atleast Delta has made the effort to combat the LCCs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

Song seems like a good idea...will it make any money under the DAL flag? Who knows its a wait and see. The bigger picture I would be concerned about is that DAL will spin SOnd off into a independant like DCI and have a seperate goup and cetificate to pound the pilot unions (notice plural because ALPA eats thier own and all have to fend for themselves) into concessions and just in DAL alone have 8 carriers fighting for traffic. But I quess the LCC's are dangerous mainly AirTran because we command a whopping 1% (1/100th) of domestic taffic (for now ). Im really looking forward to the 7E7 someday flying to Madrid and London with a nice green tail with a small "a" on on it. And General before you tell me not to get "Cocky" I will because I LOVE MY AIRLINEas you and others love thiers.

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,

I don't think you are cocky. I actually think you are rational and I can understand your love for your company. The key difference is that you agree with me that we will both have to watch and see how this goes, not immediately shooting it down without giving it a chance. You might be right about Delta wanting to spin it off, but id it is successful and profitable as management says it will be, it is highly unlikely they would dump it. I think it is great that Delta decided to continue courting the Low Fare customer after Delta Express (which did fine--not poorly)--and they are willing to take on Jetblue and your airline to some extent (not as much) and not retreat. We shall see what happens.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

General
A lot a peaple get all tied up a bout LCC's and that has an effect on the group as a whole..but most groups will try to reach a level that is relativly close in pay over time. Division of labor groups in one company has more of a dirrect effect in pay vs outside competition. I have no hard facts to back that up with just personal observation. That is what I see as a larger threat. And DAL has moved to mulple layers faster and better that any other carrier Bassicly we all need to ask if anagment seens to be all for different groups just how good can it be for us. Unlike Ican or Lorenzo multiple companies under on roof with only one brand name (DA= Sond-DAL Mainline-DCI (ASA/CMR/CHT) pulls off a feat hat Lorenzo would have used if he was smarter. Any way that is what I see as the next large Labor/Managment hurdle and General and the Boys at DAL (whole family) are the tip of the spear I do and will support you on that issue. we at AAI do have contract provision that if the company buys anothe carrie (ie. express) it wiil become one list just for that reason.

 

[jetblue320]

Jetblue320,

I guess we did. I don't really know who is in charge of that, but somebody is probably getting a lashing, and it will be ready eventually. I believe it is thru Matsushista (SP?) and it will have a system that will not blank out when the aircraft turns. Also, we will have a SONG list, that each passenger can make (12 or so) so they can listen to the music they want to hear from an aircraft library of 40 albums etc.... That is pretty cool. And, the 757's are put on routes that cannot fail----like LGA to FLL and EWR to PBI. Come winter time they should be full, regardless of the TV situation. And, those passengers will not only have the flexibility to fly out of any of the three largest NYC airports (you guys cannot offer that), they also will get frequent flyer miles on three large airlines to go anywhere in the world. That really is huge, and those two facts are never mentioned by you or the others. I guess passengers are just dumb and don't care about flexibility of choice between airports and free trips around the world? I am waiting for your response.

You are right that we had to drop fares to LA etc. because you started and then later dropped most of your service. (That is B.S. that you left for other cities that were more profitable---that is twisting the truth around---you obviously couldn't sustain a profit from ATL---twisting the truth aint nice!!!) But, the planes we fly are big enough to spread out the costs, and until just after the war ended, alot of passengers weren't flying at all. We would rather take a full plane at a discount than a few high paying businessmen. Now we have both. Our walkup fares are lower thanks to you, but we have leaned out our company since 9-11---down 16,000 employees. We are making it work, and finding ways to make sure we get back to profitability. We do watch our debt, and we will have to pay that off for some time to come---but we will service it. Your LGB hub plans are really up to the LBG city council, and I don't think they want a lot more noise in that area. They are happy with your commitment--and your 40 or so slots will probably be it. As for your next hub, well---it won't be ATL or CVG---due to lack of space---so I will be interested to see where you go. Can you think of a city that is big enough to support a hub on its own (obviously JFK had a large encatchment area--western Long Island and Yonkers?), but where could it be?
The only places that have a lot of terminal space are COS (left open by Western Pacific), STL (thanks to AA chopping its schedule in half), BNA (AA again), and RDU (AA and Midway). Please enlighten me on other airports that could have the room necessary to advance your growth plans. Anybody?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Gee, didn't mean to get your goat THAT bad General, all I wanted to point out was that you had been going on and on about inflight live tv by October and that fact that now it isn't going to happen. I know YOU were excited about the whole entertainment package, but the fact is, DL advertised it for an October date, and it ain't gonna happen. That was my point. And then you went and (politely) called me a liar about the ATL-LGB routes. THAT wasn't very nice at all. I was only stating what I heard on the Conference Call (which can be heard by anyone of the public on our Investor Web Page). Blue Dude repeated the actual numbers in his post but for the record, I'll state it again in layman's terms. jetBlue did not reduce it flights from ATL-LGB because it was losing money. Believe it or not, that's your option.

And for the record, yes, I (and most of the other's at JB) DO believe what our corporate heads tell us. WE live the things we are told so we know them to be true, YOU just hear about it second hand. You believe everything Leo tells you, right?

Anyway, it wasn't a personal dart being thrown at you. I think you are a pretty dedicated DL guy, and I admire that. AN apology for calling me a liar (in a roundabout way) would be nice though. If you feel you are above that, no biggie.

See ya and Take Care.

 

[skirt]

Gee, didn't mean to get your goat THAT bad General, all I wanted to point out was that you had been going on and on about inflight live tv by October and that fact that now it isn't going to happen. I know YOU were excited about the whole entertainment package, but the fact is, DL advertised it for an October date, and it ain't gonna happen. That was my point.

When, oh when, will airlines learn that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver, rather than promise the stars and deliver the moon? That is one of the reasons JetBlue and Southwest have been successful, they don't promise what they can't deliver.

Song has gotten, and will continue to get, a bad rap because they can't deliver the TV they promised. Someday, I am sure, they will get TV. However, by then the consumers will be so jaded by bad promises that it will be hard to win them over. United does it all the time too, so Delta and Song are not alone with this strategy.

Sigh.

Skirt

 

[General Lee]

Jetblue320,

Well, I didn't really mean to call you a liar, and if you thought that--well, I am sorry. I just THOUGHT it sounded funny---and if an airline exec would pull an aircraft with an 83% load factor off a route (or two out of the three flights)--that would be nuts. But, I actually think we did the same things with our MD11's from our PDX hub a couple years ago. Supposedly we had full flights to Japan and Korea etc, but the bean counters in ATL thought the MD-11s could make more in Europe--and eventually closed the PDX hub. (Thank God ---SARS would have killed us even more) So, maybe your bean counters are doing the same as ours---looking for the most profitable route for each plane.


Skirt,

I know Delta promised the TV system and gizmos for Song, and obviously they were thinking ahead too fast. Maybe Matshista (SP?)--the maker of the system---promised Delta it would be ready sooner, and they were wrong. I am sure Delta would install it if they could, and I don't think they are false promises--I would think they are probably embarrassed. But, I think the system, along with the personal Song play list (which sounds cool) will be great once they do install it. With the Swissair technical glitch on the MD-11---I think they have to be careful about installing those new systems. Hopefully it will work and the gizmos will be neat. We shall see.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetblue320]

Jetblue320,

Well, I didn't really mean to call you a liar, and if you thought that--well, I am sorry. I just THOUGHT it sounded funny---and if an airline exec would pull an aircraft with an 83% load factor off a route (or two out of the three flights)--that would be nuts. But, I actually think we did the same things with our MD11's from our PDX hub a couple years ago. Supposedly we had full flights to Japan and Korea etc, but the bean counters in ATL thought the MD-11s could make more in Europe--and eventually closed the PDX hub. (Thank God ---SARS would have killed us even more) So, maybe your bean counters are doing the same as ours---looking for the most profitable route for each plane.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

Apology accepted.

And yes, it does seem a bit odd to pull out of that run to me too. I had gained from it personally because my in-laws (who are die hard ATL Deltoids FYI-Father In Law is a DL Flying Colonel if you remember what that is) were using that route non-rev to travel to our vacation home in Utah via LGB and I hated to see it go away. But, I guess the dollar rules, as it should. As you know, the decision to drop the ATL-LGB to once a day was in exchange for FLL-LGB and soon ATL-OAK. The slot thing played a part and yadda yadda yadda. Remember, unlike DL, we don't have the luxury of a large fleet of planes to jook to and fro, so we have to get the most bang for our buck as we grow. It's not my place to second guess my bosses. They have a pretty good track record so far, even you will admit that I am sure.

Anyway, thanks again for the "I'm Sorry" and take care.

Have a good weekend.

 

[colorado418]

Jetblue320,

I just THOUGHT it sounded funny---and if an airline exec would pull an aircraft with an 83% load factor off a route (or two out of the three flights)--that would be nuts.

Unless there is a route that will yield a higher load factor. Just got an email from the chief pilot. He mentioned that David was talking in a pocket session today. Basically David Neeleman comes over to JFK and they set up an informal meeting of Q and A for about 2 hours. Great to have that kind of access to the top execs in the company. The serve free food and Blue kool-aide. Quite tasty...


Any how, to the point. David mentioned that so far we have had a great summer and that August was looking good as well with company load factors in the high 90's...

For that matter, in the past couple of weeks, I think that a load in the 140's has been the lowest I have carried. Mostly in the high 150's out of 162...

Maybe it is not so crazy to pull out of a 83% load factor market...

I just fly 'em...