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JetBlue Staffing of the EMB's
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jetblue320
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Posts
- 572
Re: Other domicile demographics
As of August 1st Schedules, there are:
277 JFK CAP
286 JFK F/O
---------------
34 FLL CAP
43 FLL F/O
And, although it is not official yet, we are planning for a LGB domicile with approx. 30-35 Crews (70 pilots) sometime around Sept. or Oct. of this year. They have already had a practice base bid to let the crews know of the preliminary staffing and to give you an idea of what your seniority within the base would be.
And, we have BIG, BIG plans for another city (to be announced in a week or so) which could become bigger than JFK in a short period of time. I won't let the kitty out of the bag, but a small hint is in order:
Hey General Lee, Song and DLX are gonna have a much bigger dog in the neighborhood soon!
(Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)
Hope that answers your question Jaxgus.
C Ya
jaxgus said:
As of August 1st Schedules, there are:
277 JFK CAP
286 JFK F/O
---------------
34 FLL CAP
43 FLL F/O
And, although it is not official yet, we are planning for a LGB domicile with approx. 30-35 Crews (70 pilots) sometime around Sept. or Oct. of this year. They have already had a practice base bid to let the crews know of the preliminary staffing and to give you an idea of what your seniority within the base would be.
And, we have BIG, BIG plans for another city (to be announced in a week or so) which could become bigger than JFK in a short period of time. I won't let the kitty out of the bag, but a small hint is in order:
Hey General Lee, Song and DLX are gonna have a much bigger dog in the neighborhood soon!
(Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)
Hope that answers your question Jaxgus.
C Ya
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
JBUCapt,
Well, without the Gov't money---Delta CLAIMS it would have lost money. This is a shell game. They still want money from the employees---come on dude---you know the game. With full profits--there is no way the employees would give up any money, especially the pilots. Delta management did state that we had a $31 million operating profit for June, and our July numbers are probably good also. Our cash liquidity is also very good, jumping from $1.9 Billion on March 31st of this year to $3 billion, $2.8 billion of which is unrestricted. The debt we have is large, but a lot of that is Delta's fault---still building a large new terminal in BOS and JFK (I think they are still building that one). And, we gained an extra $1 billion in debt from all of the RJs we bought this year. That is managements deal---and they probably know what they are doing---but want us to pay for it. Song has been doing well---someone said a 70% load factor so far. Sure, your loads are probably better, but when we EVENTUALLY get the TV's and all of the gizmos put in the planes and the frequent flyers start choosing us because of the DL/CO/NW codeshare and the free flights everywhere in the world, it will probably get better. You can offer your new A320's and EMB190s eventually with your cheery employees and TVs, and we will offer all three NYC airports, Song employees that were screened to be a lot nicer than some of the mainline senior mamas, roomier 757's, personal song lists, TV systems (early next year now??), and better food---actual brand names, and free trips to Venice, Italy or Hong Kong--and then we shall see. Our finances are getting better---slowly though. We have shed 16,000 employees, added hundreds of Kiosks for easier check in, added 2 hrs a day on those Song 757s to make them produce more $$, shortened turn times on them too, and we are retiring huge numbers of pilots due to the low Gatt rate for Sep. (It increases a lot on OCT 1st) Things are getting better, but you should know JBUCapt that the company will now show any profits until they are ready---it is called Arthur Anderson style accounting.
And, speaking of losing money on routes---how are your three flights a day from ATL to LGB doing? Ooops---I am sorry, it will be one flight a day soon--and then you added 1 to OAK. Thanks--we just added two more 738's. Will we lose money on them? Probably not---one of the flights is now an allnighter--which will increase the time of flying on that plane each day--giving us more money to pay off the daily lease rate, insurance, etc. You helped us add an allnighter, which helps us pay the bills---Thanks man! And we also added another allnighter from SFO to ATL---again helping out.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Well, without the Gov't money---Delta CLAIMS it would have lost money. This is a shell game. They still want money from the employees---come on dude---you know the game. With full profits--there is no way the employees would give up any money, especially the pilots. Delta management did state that we had a $31 million operating profit for June, and our July numbers are probably good also. Our cash liquidity is also very good, jumping from $1.9 Billion on March 31st of this year to $3 billion, $2.8 billion of which is unrestricted. The debt we have is large, but a lot of that is Delta's fault---still building a large new terminal in BOS and JFK (I think they are still building that one). And, we gained an extra $1 billion in debt from all of the RJs we bought this year. That is managements deal---and they probably know what they are doing---but want us to pay for it. Song has been doing well---someone said a 70% load factor so far. Sure, your loads are probably better, but when we EVENTUALLY get the TV's and all of the gizmos put in the planes and the frequent flyers start choosing us because of the DL/CO/NW codeshare and the free flights everywhere in the world, it will probably get better. You can offer your new A320's and EMB190s eventually with your cheery employees and TVs, and we will offer all three NYC airports, Song employees that were screened to be a lot nicer than some of the mainline senior mamas, roomier 757's, personal song lists, TV systems (early next year now??), and better food---actual brand names, and free trips to Venice, Italy or Hong Kong--and then we shall see. Our finances are getting better---slowly though. We have shed 16,000 employees, added hundreds of Kiosks for easier check in, added 2 hrs a day on those Song 757s to make them produce more $$, shortened turn times on them too, and we are retiring huge numbers of pilots due to the low Gatt rate for Sep. (It increases a lot on OCT 1st) Things are getting better, but you should know JBUCapt that the company will now show any profits until they are ready---it is called Arthur Anderson style accounting.
And, speaking of losing money on routes---how are your three flights a day from ATL to LGB doing? Ooops---I am sorry, it will be one flight a day soon--and then you added 1 to OAK. Thanks--we just added two more 738's. Will we lose money on them? Probably not---one of the flights is now an allnighter--which will increase the time of flying on that plane each day--giving us more money to pay off the daily lease rate, insurance, etc. You helped us add an allnighter, which helps us pay the bills---Thanks man! And we also added another allnighter from SFO to ATL---again helping out.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Last edited:
jetblue320
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Posts
- 572
General Lee said:JBUCapt,
And, speaking of losing money on routes---how are your three flights a day from ATL to LGB doing? Ooops---I am sorry, it will be one flight a day soon--and then you added 1 to OAK. Thanks--we just added two more 738's. Will we lose money on them? Probably not---one of the flights is now an allnighter--which will increase the time of flying on that plane each day--giving us more money to pay off the daily lease rate, insurance, etc. You helped us add an allnighter, which helps us pay the bills---Thanks man! And we also added another allnighter from SFO to ATL---again helping out.
Bye Bye---General Lee
I know this wasn't directed at me General, but I'll reply anyway. You can research this if you want (it's public info) but we didn't change the ATL-LGB routes to once a day because they were losing money, it was so we can make MORE money on other routes.
Besides, money doesn't matter when you can get a major airline to re-arrange it's major markets, drop it's fares DRAMATICALLY, and cause other disruption just by adding/dropping routes for a few months. Even if our goal was not to taunt DL, it sure was fun to watch David throw a rock at Goliath (pun intended). It will also be fun to watch the public reaction when DL hikes their fares back up from what they are now and drops the extra routes they added to counter JB. What's really fun is watching you defend those pirates!
jetblue320
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Posts
- 572
General Lee said:
Hmmm...I somehow remember a thread between you and I a month or so back reagrding this little tid bit. I stated something to the effect of "Song will have difficulty getting the live TV because of hardware/antenna issues and probably overstated a October service date". Sound familiar?
What happened General, run into a little snag?
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Jetblue320,
I guess we did. I don't really know who is in charge of that, but somebody is probably getting a lashing, and it will be ready eventually. I believe it is thru Matsushista (SP?) and it will have a system that will not blank out when the aircraft turns. Also, we will have a SONG list, that each passenger can make (12 or so) so they can listen to the music they want to hear from an aircraft library of 40 albums etc.... That is pretty cool. And, the 757's are put on routes that cannot fail----like LGA to FLL and EWR to PBI. Come winter time they should be full, regardless of the TV situation. And, those passengers will not only have the flexibility to fly out of any of the three largest NYC airports (you guys cannot offer that), they also will get frequent flyer miles on three large airlines to go anywhere in the world. That really is huge, and those two facts are never mentioned by you or the others. I guess passengers are just dumb and don't care about flexibility of choice between airports and free trips around the world? I am waiting for your response.
You are right that we had to drop fares to LA etc. because you started and then later dropped most of your service. (That is B.S. that you left for other cities that were more profitable---that is twisting the truth around---you obviously couldn't sustain a profit from ATL---twisting the truth aint nice!!!) But, the planes we fly are big enough to spread out the costs, and until just after the war ended, alot of passengers weren't flying at all. We would rather take a full plane at a discount than a few high paying businessmen. Now we have both. Our walkup fares are lower thanks to you, but we have leaned out our company since 9-11---down 16,000 employees. We are making it work, and finding ways to make sure we get back to profitability. We do watch our debt, and we will have to pay that off for some time to come---but we will service it. Your LGB hub plans are really up to the LBG city council, and I don't think they want a lot more noise in that area. They are happy with your commitment--and your 40 or so slots will probably be it. As for your next hub, well---it won't be ATL or CVG---due to lack of space---so I will be interested to see where you go. Can you think of a city that is big enough to support a hub on its own (obviously JFK had a large encatchment area--western Long Island and Yonkers?), but where could it be?
The only places that have a lot of terminal space are COS (left open by Western Pacific), STL (thanks to AA chopping its schedule in half), BNA (AA again), and RDU (AA and Midway). Please enlighten me on other airports that could have the room necessary to advance your growth plans. Anybody?
Bye Bye--General Lee
I guess we did. I don't really know who is in charge of that, but somebody is probably getting a lashing, and it will be ready eventually. I believe it is thru Matsushista (SP?) and it will have a system that will not blank out when the aircraft turns. Also, we will have a SONG list, that each passenger can make (12 or so) so they can listen to the music they want to hear from an aircraft library of 40 albums etc.... That is pretty cool. And, the 757's are put on routes that cannot fail----like LGA to FLL and EWR to PBI. Come winter time they should be full, regardless of the TV situation. And, those passengers will not only have the flexibility to fly out of any of the three largest NYC airports (you guys cannot offer that), they also will get frequent flyer miles on three large airlines to go anywhere in the world. That really is huge, and those two facts are never mentioned by you or the others. I guess passengers are just dumb and don't care about flexibility of choice between airports and free trips around the world? I am waiting for your response.
You are right that we had to drop fares to LA etc. because you started and then later dropped most of your service. (That is B.S. that you left for other cities that were more profitable---that is twisting the truth around---you obviously couldn't sustain a profit from ATL---twisting the truth aint nice!!!) But, the planes we fly are big enough to spread out the costs, and until just after the war ended, alot of passengers weren't flying at all. We would rather take a full plane at a discount than a few high paying businessmen. Now we have both. Our walkup fares are lower thanks to you, but we have leaned out our company since 9-11---down 16,000 employees. We are making it work, and finding ways to make sure we get back to profitability. We do watch our debt, and we will have to pay that off for some time to come---but we will service it. Your LGB hub plans are really up to the LBG city council, and I don't think they want a lot more noise in that area. They are happy with your commitment--and your 40 or so slots will probably be it. As for your next hub, well---it won't be ATL or CVG---due to lack of space---so I will be interested to see where you go. Can you think of a city that is big enough to support a hub on its own (obviously JFK had a large encatchment area--western Long Island and Yonkers?), but where could it be?
The only places that have a lot of terminal space are COS (left open by Western Pacific), STL (thanks to AA chopping its schedule in half), BNA (AA again), and RDU (AA and Midway). Please enlighten me on other airports that could have the room necessary to advance your growth plans. Anybody?
Bye Bye--General Lee
SpeedBird
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 257
General Lee,
It seems you're starting to get a little testy about folks taking you to task about mother Delta, and your numerous posts about all the great things your airline is doing (or will do) to the competition, namely jetBlue, AirTran, and other LCC's. In this situation I don't really feel sorry for you feeling like a nose (you know...getting picked on by those kool-aid drinking JBLU pilots). This particular thread was going pretty good until you tried to hijack it to complain about jetBlue's decision to reduce its flights into ATL. Your last post took another cheap shot at JBLU with your statement:
"And, speaking of losing money on routes---how are your three flights a day from ATL to LGB doing? Ooops---I am sorry, it will be one flight a day soon."
Not only is this comment uncalled for, it also shows your immaturity (a recurring theme lately), and your complete inability to gain command of basic facts. Nevermind the fact that when it comes to money-losing routes DAL maintains no financial highground over JBLU. You can bet that the ATL-LA flights were money losers alright. The problem for you is that all the planes were owned and operated by Delta.
Just to make sure there are no doubts about jetBlue's ATL-LGB operations and their profitability, let me quote David Neeleman directly as he responded to an analyst question about the profitability of jetBlue's LGB-ATL flights, last week at their quarterly CC:
"jetBlue has been maintaning 83% load factors on all of these flights since their inauguration....so yes, they are profitable for us."
Let me add that JBLU's BELF is 70% systemwide, this would make transcons even less than the system average CASM of 6.07 cents/mile. Here's another little piece of info you can stick in your pipe Major Lee, JBLU management found that many passengers from OAK were transferring to LGB to go to ATL, therefore JBLU has decided to respond with direct, non-stop service for those passengers, just as was done with the SAN - JFK startup. Yields on the OAK - ATL flights will be better since DAL will have less of an impact with it's seat dumping tactics, as was done in LA . Unlike Delta which employs old-school tactics, and thinks the flying public owes it something, jetBlue makes pragmatic decisions which are designed to maximize its's shareholders' value by getting the most profit with its capital assets, namely their small fleet of 45 A320s. Too bad Delta can't make such a claim to their shareholders, who've been punished by DAL's falling stock price and growing mountain of debt over the last two years.
I also have to shake my head reading your rampant pumping of Song and its promised IFE system that will put JBLU's to shame. All you managed to do is set high expectations for some pie in the sky system that hasn't even been field tested yet. Why don't you try this strategy...keep your mouth shut about Song's great IFE system and keep expectations low. That way we'll all be pleasantly surprised if it works out better than you expected. So far the only facts worth mentioning about Song is it's performing below expectations with only 70% LF's to date. Boy I remember back in April hearing you and the other Song kool-aid drinkers hyping the living daylights about how Song was gonna take over the world and send jetBlue packing its bags back to JFK.
Well Lieutenant Lee...we're waiting.
It seems you're starting to get a little testy about folks taking you to task about mother Delta, and your numerous posts about all the great things your airline is doing (or will do) to the competition, namely jetBlue, AirTran, and other LCC's. In this situation I don't really feel sorry for you feeling like a nose (you know...getting picked on by those kool-aid drinking JBLU pilots). This particular thread was going pretty good until you tried to hijack it to complain about jetBlue's decision to reduce its flights into ATL. Your last post took another cheap shot at JBLU with your statement:
"And, speaking of losing money on routes---how are your three flights a day from ATL to LGB doing? Ooops---I am sorry, it will be one flight a day soon."
Not only is this comment uncalled for, it also shows your immaturity (a recurring theme lately), and your complete inability to gain command of basic facts. Nevermind the fact that when it comes to money-losing routes DAL maintains no financial highground over JBLU. You can bet that the ATL-LA flights were money losers alright. The problem for you is that all the planes were owned and operated by Delta.
Just to make sure there are no doubts about jetBlue's ATL-LGB operations and their profitability, let me quote David Neeleman directly as he responded to an analyst question about the profitability of jetBlue's LGB-ATL flights, last week at their quarterly CC:
"jetBlue has been maintaning 83% load factors on all of these flights since their inauguration....so yes, they are profitable for us."
Let me add that JBLU's BELF is 70% systemwide, this would make transcons even less than the system average CASM of 6.07 cents/mile. Here's another little piece of info you can stick in your pipe Major Lee, JBLU management found that many passengers from OAK were transferring to LGB to go to ATL, therefore JBLU has decided to respond with direct, non-stop service for those passengers, just as was done with the SAN - JFK startup. Yields on the OAK - ATL flights will be better since DAL will have less of an impact with it's seat dumping tactics, as was done in LA . Unlike Delta which employs old-school tactics, and thinks the flying public owes it something, jetBlue makes pragmatic decisions which are designed to maximize its's shareholders' value by getting the most profit with its capital assets, namely their small fleet of 45 A320s. Too bad Delta can't make such a claim to their shareholders, who've been punished by DAL's falling stock price and growing mountain of debt over the last two years.
I also have to shake my head reading your rampant pumping of Song and its promised IFE system that will put JBLU's to shame. All you managed to do is set high expectations for some pie in the sky system that hasn't even been field tested yet. Why don't you try this strategy...keep your mouth shut about Song's great IFE system and keep expectations low. That way we'll all be pleasantly surprised if it works out better than you expected. So far the only facts worth mentioning about Song is it's performing below expectations with only 70% LF's to date. Boy I remember back in April hearing you and the other Song kool-aid drinkers hyping the living daylights about how Song was gonna take over the world and send jetBlue packing its bags back to JFK.
Well Lieutenant Lee...we're waiting.
Last edited:
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Speedturd,
Hey, I thought that was funny, since you resorted to calling me names--and demotions at that! Guess what buddy, anyone can comment on anything---this is a public forum. (Speedbird might be a Nazi--watch out--he will report you...) This is what I was responding to from JetblueA320:
"I know this wasn't directed at me General, but I'll reply anyway. You can research this if you want (it's public info) but we didn't change the ATL-LGB routes to once a day because they were losing money, it was so we can make MORE money on other routes."
That is such B.S. You guys really believe everything your management says, don't you? Oh, that's right, you're all in love and are constantly kissing each other, until you eventually want pay raises---oh, that's right, you are already paid very very well--even though you can't afford a 1 bedroom crack house in Yonkers. Why would you almost exit a market (drop 66% of flights) with an 83% load factor? Well, I am waiting? I guess your CEO must be nuts. Oh, that's right, he was just firing over our bow---showing us what the mighty Jetblue can do.......Whatever. Thanks for spurring us into action--without you guys giving us a little competition, we might not have added more flights. Are they money losers? Probably not because you guys seem to forget that we have been getting leaner over the past year or so, and we are adjusting ourselves to your game plan. Yes, we have a debt problem, and so will you when you get all of your $6 billion worth of airplanes eventually---unless you pay for all of them with cash from Soros and his buddies. (Or did he cash out already?)
Debt is ok as long as you can service it. Say it out loud again----"DEBT IS OK AS LONG AS YOU CAN SERVICE IT." One more out loud."CASH FLOW IS KEY." Try it again. CASH FLOW IS KEY. AOL has $24 billion in debt, and guess what? They are still around and kicking. We will service it and eventually in many years pay it off. You don't think 10-15% a year from all employees would help service it?? Sure it would, and when things get better it will be easier to service it.
I am glad you think Delta thinks that the public owes them something. Wow, that is powerful. Ok, what? Since who, what? What are you talking about? We instituted the same game plan with pricing fares as you did for Song, and mainline fares have been lowered and simplified too. We made it easier for passnegers to get through the airport faster--many many Kiosks, and we gave them a better frequent flyer program that you guys can only dream about---oh yeah--your passengers don't want to see the world---only Long Beach and Ft. Lauderdale. We have tried to make it easier for passengers because we know that we could lose them if we don't. Now, at cities that don't have LCC's--the fares are higher--but that is just plain business--and I hope you guys go to Peoria or Sun Valley someday---in your EMB190's no doubt!!!
As far as our shareholders, we have been giving them regular dividends far longer than the other majors, and just recently stopped the practice until we get our balance sheet fixed. Our stock did fall after 9-11 like most, but has doubled in the last month to $12.00---and with eventual pay cuts should increase again. You obviously don't think times will get better, do you? Will gas prices ever come down? You bet. The Iraq infrastructure will become complete and prices will tumble, and we buy so much more gas than you do---so our bottom line will increase a lot faster than you will. Will business passengers ever return to higher fares? Probably. Yes, the internet has changed a lot of things, but the economy drives travel, and when it comes back (as it is doing right now)---fares will increase. We will benefit from that much more than you because we fly ten times the number of passengers. Not all of our fares are low---try Europe for example. We are jammed full, and we have no competition from you or any other LCC. None.
As far as Song goes, you don't think we will ever get above 70% load factor? Ever? What are you smokin? Let me guess, you were at 100% the minute you started, right? You were, right? Wrong. It probably took awhile, right? We have like 12 757's on Song right now, and we will have 36 by December--flying to sunny warm places from the NE and FLA (LAS and SJU etc too). The summer time probably wasn't the best time to start, but the winter time will yeild results. Why do I know that? I flew Delta Express 737's and we were always full. Now we will have the correct plane (757) flying 199 people to warm destinations--with a better frequent flyer program and a better selection of airports to depart from. You never respond to those---those are your weaknesses.
So, private Speedturd---enjoy being cocky---I am just telling you why I believe Song and mainline Delta will live on and do well. Where is your next hub going to be again? Your airline is running out of options---and living in Yonkers is starting to suck.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Hey, I thought that was funny, since you resorted to calling me names--and demotions at that! Guess what buddy, anyone can comment on anything---this is a public forum. (Speedbird might be a Nazi--watch out--he will report you...) This is what I was responding to from JetblueA320:
"I know this wasn't directed at me General, but I'll reply anyway. You can research this if you want (it's public info) but we didn't change the ATL-LGB routes to once a day because they were losing money, it was so we can make MORE money on other routes."
That is such B.S. You guys really believe everything your management says, don't you? Oh, that's right, you're all in love and are constantly kissing each other, until you eventually want pay raises---oh, that's right, you are already paid very very well--even though you can't afford a 1 bedroom crack house in Yonkers. Why would you almost exit a market (drop 66% of flights) with an 83% load factor? Well, I am waiting? I guess your CEO must be nuts. Oh, that's right, he was just firing over our bow---showing us what the mighty Jetblue can do.......Whatever. Thanks for spurring us into action--without you guys giving us a little competition, we might not have added more flights. Are they money losers? Probably not because you guys seem to forget that we have been getting leaner over the past year or so, and we are adjusting ourselves to your game plan. Yes, we have a debt problem, and so will you when you get all of your $6 billion worth of airplanes eventually---unless you pay for all of them with cash from Soros and his buddies. (Or did he cash out already?)
Debt is ok as long as you can service it. Say it out loud again----"DEBT IS OK AS LONG AS YOU CAN SERVICE IT." One more out loud."CASH FLOW IS KEY." Try it again. CASH FLOW IS KEY. AOL has $24 billion in debt, and guess what? They are still around and kicking. We will service it and eventually in many years pay it off. You don't think 10-15% a year from all employees would help service it?? Sure it would, and when things get better it will be easier to service it.
I am glad you think Delta thinks that the public owes them something. Wow, that is powerful. Ok, what? Since who, what? What are you talking about? We instituted the same game plan with pricing fares as you did for Song, and mainline fares have been lowered and simplified too. We made it easier for passnegers to get through the airport faster--many many Kiosks, and we gave them a better frequent flyer program that you guys can only dream about---oh yeah--your passengers don't want to see the world---only Long Beach and Ft. Lauderdale. We have tried to make it easier for passengers because we know that we could lose them if we don't. Now, at cities that don't have LCC's--the fares are higher--but that is just plain business--and I hope you guys go to Peoria or Sun Valley someday---in your EMB190's no doubt!!!
As far as our shareholders, we have been giving them regular dividends far longer than the other majors, and just recently stopped the practice until we get our balance sheet fixed. Our stock did fall after 9-11 like most, but has doubled in the last month to $12.00---and with eventual pay cuts should increase again. You obviously don't think times will get better, do you? Will gas prices ever come down? You bet. The Iraq infrastructure will become complete and prices will tumble, and we buy so much more gas than you do---so our bottom line will increase a lot faster than you will. Will business passengers ever return to higher fares? Probably. Yes, the internet has changed a lot of things, but the economy drives travel, and when it comes back (as it is doing right now)---fares will increase. We will benefit from that much more than you because we fly ten times the number of passengers. Not all of our fares are low---try Europe for example. We are jammed full, and we have no competition from you or any other LCC. None.
As far as Song goes, you don't think we will ever get above 70% load factor? Ever? What are you smokin? Let me guess, you were at 100% the minute you started, right? You were, right? Wrong. It probably took awhile, right? We have like 12 757's on Song right now, and we will have 36 by December--flying to sunny warm places from the NE and FLA (LAS and SJU etc too). The summer time probably wasn't the best time to start, but the winter time will yeild results. Why do I know that? I flew Delta Express 737's and we were always full. Now we will have the correct plane (757) flying 199 people to warm destinations--with a better frequent flyer program and a better selection of airports to depart from. You never respond to those---those are your weaknesses.
So, private Speedturd---enjoy being cocky---I am just telling you why I believe Song and mainline Delta will live on and do well. Where is your next hub going to be again? Your airline is running out of options---and living in Yonkers is starting to suck.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
Hi there,
Song miles do not count at your alliance partners, this from NWA:
"Delta’s Song and Delta Connection flights operated by American Eagle are not included in these new redemption benefits. For a complete list of terms and conditions related to award travel, customers are encouraged to visit each carrier’s respective Web site."
I am happy you like flying to LAX, but DAL is more than likely loosing money, with that capacity increase. Doubt it will stay at the current frequency much longer, although you still got Airtran to deal with.
Now DAL has discovered OAK, wonder how many flights you are going to dump into that market and how much money you you are willing to loose. Just ask AMR.
DAL may be leaner and meaner, but cost wise, there are still a long way to go, before you can match fares with the LCC's and make a profit while doing it.
Yes, Song is a great idea and I have no doubt it will do well, but it is not the end all, as jetBlue is not. DAL continues to live under the premise, that there is no room for competetion and that all other must be destroyed. I suppose, a monopoly would be nice, one could charge outrageous fares
Song miles do not count at your alliance partners, this from NWA:
"Delta’s Song and Delta Connection flights operated by American Eagle are not included in these new redemption benefits. For a complete list of terms and conditions related to award travel, customers are encouraged to visit each carrier’s respective Web site."
I am happy you like flying to LAX, but DAL is more than likely loosing money, with that capacity increase. Doubt it will stay at the current frequency much longer, although you still got Airtran to deal with.
Now DAL has discovered OAK, wonder how many flights you are going to dump into that market and how much money you you are willing to loose. Just ask AMR.
DAL may be leaner and meaner, but cost wise, there are still a long way to go, before you can match fares with the LCC's and make a profit while doing it.
Yes, Song is a great idea and I have no doubt it will do well, but it is not the end all, as jetBlue is not. DAL continues to live under the premise, that there is no room for competetion and that all other must be destroyed. I suppose, a monopoly would be nice, one could charge outrageous fares
General Lee
Well-known member
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Speedbird is speechless. Man that was easy.
Dizel8,
I like the avitar. Anyways, when you said that Song or Delta Connection miles under the American Eagle codeshare are not redeamed on NWA-- I think that is correct. The AA Eagle codeshare stuff in LA is not really DCI or SONG---and that is expected. Someday we will replace that flying with actual DCI flying--like Comair and ASA. But, that doesn't mean Song flights aren't redeamable on NW and CO---the AA eagle flights aren't.
I still don't know why we have them as a code share partner--I guess we are waiting for more RJs to arrive.
How would you know if we were losing money on our LA flights? We will have 22 a day from the LA basin to ATL---and that means a lot of seats, but the basin has what? 10 Million people? Every time I fly in there we are full--and on the 767-300 that means spread out revenue and lots of cargo. Now that we can carry next day air mail for the USPS--we fill those things up, along with bags and a lot of special cargo too--like fish from ANC--SLC--LAX.
I guess we can't make any money on any flights according to some people---even though we had a $31 million operating profit in June.
Yes, we have to bring our costs down, and we are not totally changing over to the dark side--I mean the LCC. We still have premium seats and fares waiting for the economy to return and people wanting a better product. We won't go totally towards Song, but we will offer that to the price concious consumer--and that will help out. We do really well on the Business Elite service from Europe to the US---and we always fill first class to LA and high density markets. The passengers out there aren't only the super frugal small business folk that Jetblue might serve due to low fares, there are also high end passengers. We have Song to take care of the price concious ones, and mainline first class to fly the lawyers who expense it to their clients, and the middle managers who want the frequent flyer points etc. We will not totally turn into a LCC, and we will cut back where necessary to cover the extra costs and become more competitive in some markets---but not all--like ATL to Munich. Watch out--Airtran will fly their 737NG's there next!!!
Bye Bye--General Lee
Dizel8,
I like the avitar. Anyways, when you said that Song or Delta Connection miles under the American Eagle codeshare are not redeamed on NWA-- I think that is correct. The AA Eagle codeshare stuff in LA is not really DCI or SONG---and that is expected. Someday we will replace that flying with actual DCI flying--like Comair and ASA. But, that doesn't mean Song flights aren't redeamable on NW and CO---the AA eagle flights aren't.
I still don't know why we have them as a code share partner--I guess we are waiting for more RJs to arrive.
How would you know if we were losing money on our LA flights? We will have 22 a day from the LA basin to ATL---and that means a lot of seats, but the basin has what? 10 Million people? Every time I fly in there we are full--and on the 767-300 that means spread out revenue and lots of cargo. Now that we can carry next day air mail for the USPS--we fill those things up, along with bags and a lot of special cargo too--like fish from ANC--SLC--LAX.
I guess we can't make any money on any flights according to some people---even though we had a $31 million operating profit in June.
Yes, we have to bring our costs down, and we are not totally changing over to the dark side--I mean the LCC. We still have premium seats and fares waiting for the economy to return and people wanting a better product. We won't go totally towards Song, but we will offer that to the price concious consumer--and that will help out. We do really well on the Business Elite service from Europe to the US---and we always fill first class to LA and high density markets. The passengers out there aren't only the super frugal small business folk that Jetblue might serve due to low fares, there are also high end passengers. We have Song to take care of the price concious ones, and mainline first class to fly the lawyers who expense it to their clients, and the middle managers who want the frequent flyer points etc. We will not totally turn into a LCC, and we will cut back where necessary to cover the extra costs and become more competitive in some markets---but not all--like ATL to Munich. Watch out--Airtran will fly their 737NG's there next!!!
Bye Bye--General Lee
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I think the General is making some good points. It's too early to write off Song. Once it has 35+ 757s equipped with new TVs flying the same routes as Jetblue, then you can make a comparison. From what I have heard, Song is doing better than initial projections.
P.S. Yonkers does SUCK! Sorry to any of the Jetblue guys who live there...
P.S. Yonkers does SUCK! Sorry to any of the Jetblue guys who live there...
FL717
As the World Turns
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- 472
General Lee said:
I think that the summertime is actually the BEST time to start the service to those destinations on SONG. It brings name recognition and capacity on those routes now (whether at a loss or not) so that you are poised when winter does roll around. Those routes are like shooting fish in a barrel during the wintertime. Yours and everyones load factors will be thru the roof, as you already know from flying Express..
Now heres the million dollar question?? What will be your yield on those routes with SONG on the 757? It didn't work with the 737-200 with Express.
That will decide success or failure.
FlyBoeingJets
YES, that's NICE
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Blue Dude
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General Lee said:
I'll probably regret getting into this, but I'll respond anyway. It's pretty simple, General. JetBlue is both making money and in a position to make more money elsewhere. You already know that LGB is very slot constrained, so it's crucial to get the most bang for the buck for every one of those slots. ATL might have worked as a real money machine, but it didn't, mostly because you were willing to double capacity on that route. So rather than let egos get in the way of good business, they've decided to give one slot over to FLL and the other temporary one up to Alaska this fall. Yes, Delta's actions were a big part of this decision, so you can claim victory if you like. However, JetBlue netted a profit on this route, and it's very unlikely that Delta did anything other than bleed. Try as you might, you can't fill seats below your cost and then make it up in volume (AA found this out on JFK-OAK). And the pain will just keep coming since your yields won't come back overnight. In fact, with JetBlue and AirTran still in the market, they won't ever come back again. OAK is next, and we're not slot constrained there. I wouldn't brag too much if I were you.
You are correct, those are JetBlue's weaknesses compared to a large network carrier like Delta. Those are also JetBlue's strengths from a cost standpoint. Operating from three airports in close proximity and providing a global frequent flier program both cost you significantly. At the same time, the lack of such service does not affect JetBlue's customer acceptance in the slightest. Song seems to think that it's worth it, but it's early yet. Perhaps if JetBlue matched such amenities, it would draw additional customers, but the cost of doing so would likely be more than it would be worth. So use what advantages you have to differentiate yourself; it's what we're doing. Too bad we'll never see Song's numbers to tell for sure.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
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Actually, I understood it to read that neither Song nor AEagle miles can be used for travel on NWA. Not that it makes much difference.
Secondly, I did not say DAL was loosing money to LAX, I said they probably were. Fact vs opinion Opinion based on the fact, that DAL doubled the frequency once jetBlue and Airtran entered the market. If it is such a money maker, why not do it prior to that.
The proof will be, if DAL maintains the frequency.
As far as Song is concerned, like I said, I think it is a great concept. Does it make money, who knows? DAL, like with DLEX, does not release the numbers for Song. That is neither good nor bad, that is just the way it is.
Secondly, I did not say DAL was loosing money to LAX, I said they probably were. Fact vs opinion
Opinion based on the fact, that DAL doubled the frequency once jetBlue and Airtran entered the market. If it is such a money maker, why not do it prior to that.The proof will be, if DAL maintains the frequency.
As far as Song is concerned, like I said, I think it is a great concept. Does it make money, who knows? DAL, like with DLEX, does not release the numbers for Song. That is neither good nor bad, that is just the way it is.
General Lee
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Blue Dude,
You and I do not know what the profit margin or loss potential on the ATL--LA basin routes are for Delta. I am sure they were a lot more profitable before, but maybe they are making a small profit. The chances that all of this has increased the market awareness (the Cabs in LA are now adorned with Delta ads reading "La Basin to ATL--22 times a day") for Delta is likely. There are also something like 10 million people living in LA, and maybe our flights are doing very well. Same goes with OAK. Sure, the fares were probably higher before and profits more, but all of these West coast cities we are talking about have high end people---and probably high end passengers too who like free trips to Palm Beach in First class. Who knows?
Giving people a selection in NYC is important---it is the second largest city in the world--after Mexico City. The passengers in Manhattan would rather drive to closer LGA than JFK--unless they take the Carey Bus (or Shame Train) from Grand Central for $25.
Most prefer LGA or EWR from Manhattan--and people will eventually try Song out if the fares are the same, both have TV, and a frequent flyer program exists. Let's just wait until we get it up to 36 757's and TVs are in--then we should compare.
Dizel8,
I agree with you. Let's wait and watch this one carefully and see how it goes. Atleast Delta has made the effort to combat the LCCs.
Bye Bye--General Lee
You and I do not know what the profit margin or loss potential on the ATL--LA basin routes are for Delta. I am sure they were a lot more profitable before, but maybe they are making a small profit. The chances that all of this has increased the market awareness (the Cabs in LA are now adorned with Delta ads reading "La Basin to ATL--22 times a day") for Delta is likely. There are also something like 10 million people living in LA, and maybe our flights are doing very well. Same goes with OAK. Sure, the fares were probably higher before and profits more, but all of these West coast cities we are talking about have high end people---and probably high end passengers too who like free trips to Palm Beach in First class. Who knows?
Giving people a selection in NYC is important---it is the second largest city in the world--after Mexico City. The passengers in Manhattan would rather drive to closer LGA than JFK--unless they take the Carey Bus (or Shame Train) from Grand Central for $25.
Most prefer LGA or EWR from Manhattan--and people will eventually try Song out if the fares are the same, both have TV, and a frequent flyer program exists. Let's just wait until we get it up to 36 757's and TVs are in--then we should compare.
Dizel8,
I agree with you. Let's wait and watch this one carefully and see how it goes. Atleast Delta has made the effort to combat the LCCs.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
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Song seems like a good idea...will it make any money under the DAL flag? Who knows its a wait and see. The bigger picture I would be concerned about is that DAL will spin SOnd off into a independant like DCI and have a seperate goup and cetificate to pound the pilot unions (notice plural because ALPA eats thier own and all have to fend for themselves) into concessions and just in DAL alone have 8 carriers fighting for traffic. But I quess the LCC's are dangerous mainly AirTran because we command a whopping 1% (1/100th) of domestic taffic (for now ). Im really looking forward to the 7E7 someday flying to Madrid and London with a nice green tail with a small "a" on on it. And General before you tell me not to get "Cocky" I will because I LOVE MY AIRLINEas you and others love thiers.
). Im really looking forward to the 7E7 someday flying to Madrid and London with a nice green tail with a small "a" on on it. And General before you tell me not to get "Cocky" I will because I LOVE MY AIRLINEas you and others love thiers.
General Lee
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FLB717,
I don't think you are cocky. I actually think you are rational and I can understand your love for your company. The key difference is that you agree with me that we will both have to watch and see how this goes, not immediately shooting it down without giving it a chance. You might be right about Delta wanting to spin it off, but id it is successful and profitable as management says it will be, it is highly unlikely they would dump it. I think it is great that Delta decided to continue courting the Low Fare customer after Delta Express (which did fine--not poorly)--and they are willing to take on Jetblue and your airline to some extent (not as much) and not retreat. We shall see what happens.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I don't think you are cocky. I actually think you are rational and I can understand your love for your company. The key difference is that you agree with me that we will both have to watch and see how this goes, not immediately shooting it down without giving it a chance. You might be right about Delta wanting to spin it off, but id it is successful and profitable as management says it will be, it is highly unlikely they would dump it. I think it is great that Delta decided to continue courting the Low Fare customer after Delta Express (which did fine--not poorly)--and they are willing to take on Jetblue and your airline to some extent (not as much) and not retreat. We shall see what happens.
Bye Bye--General Lee
FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
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General
A lot a peaple get all tied up a bout LCC's and that has an effect on the group as a whole..but most groups will try to reach a level that is relativly close in pay over time. Division of labor groups in one company has more of a dirrect effect in pay vs outside competition. I have no hard facts to back that up with just personal observation. That is what I see as a larger threat. And DAL has moved to mulple layers faster and better that any other carrier Bassicly we all need to ask if anagment seens to be all for different groups just how good can it be for us. Unlike Ican or Lorenzo multiple companies under on roof with only one brand name (DA= Sond-DAL Mainline-DCI (ASA/CMR/CHT) pulls off a feat hat Lorenzo would have used if he was smarter. Any way that is what I see as the next large Labor/Managment hurdle and General and the Boys at DAL (whole family) are the tip of the spear I do and will support you on that issue. we at AAI do have contract provision that if the company buys anothe carrie (ie. express) it wiil become one list just for that reason.
A lot a peaple get all tied up a bout LCC's and that has an effect on the group as a whole..but most groups will try to reach a level that is relativly close in pay over time. Division of labor groups in one company has more of a dirrect effect in pay vs outside competition. I have no hard facts to back that up with just personal observation. That is what I see as a larger threat. And DAL has moved to mulple layers faster and better that any other carrier Bassicly we all need to ask if anagment seens to be all for different groups just how good can it be for us. Unlike Ican or Lorenzo multiple companies under on roof with only one brand name (DA= Sond-DAL Mainline-DCI (ASA/CMR/CHT) pulls off a feat hat Lorenzo would have used if he was smarter. Any way that is what I see as the next large Labor/Managment hurdle and General and the Boys at DAL (whole family) are the tip of the spear I do and will support you on that issue. we at AAI do have contract provision that if the company buys anothe carrie (ie. express) it wiil become one list just for that reason.
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