Jetblue Pilots - You have to clean the cabin?

[TonyC]

TonyC, you seem to have a long-standing issue about JB'ers helping clean the cabin. In a previous thread, you went to great pains trying to identify the semantic difference between the concepts of "expected" or "voluntary" with regards to our help with the cabin cleanup. I thought your interest was somewhat peculiar, but hey...everyone is interested in different things. Now we go back to a familiar, if not thoroughly beaten, thought in this thread.

I expressed interest in the concept when I first learned of it. I was curious. Was it voluntary (sounds good to me) or mandatory (sounds bad to me)? Yes, we did discuss the concept of "expected." When somebody "expects" me to routinely do them a favor, the whole act of volunteering takes on a whole new flavor. In any event, y'all had me convinced it was, for the most part, voluntary.

The job posting seems to indicate otherwise.

I for one do not support this new statement in the job description.

On this point, we agree.

For what it's worth, why is this issue so important to you? Are you truly worried about our working conditions?

You might find this difficult to believe, but yes, I am. I believe you deserve to be treated with respect. I believe the way you are treated affects the way I'm treated, and vice versa. If you're volunteering to clean the cabin, you maintain your respect, and you gain the admiration of those you help. If you're expected to clean the cabin, your respect is whittled away into something less than professional. Furthermore, if you're reduced to a common worker who can, coincidentally, program the FMS, you shouldn't expect to ever earn the wage of a professional pilot. If every pilot in the industry except Jet Blue volunteers to give up per diem, I believe Jet Blue would expect its pilots to give up per diem, too. We're in the profession together.

TonyC, I simply think you are too tightly wrapped around this non-existent axle.

I'm not wrapped a bit, but it would appear that there IS an axle here.

 

[TonyC]

(Tony of course has more time on his hands 'cause he flies a few hours here and there at night and likes to hang out and argue with everybody and his grandmother.. )

I try to stick to day flying, and I know better than to try to argue with a grandmother!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Allowing your airline to sink into financial oblivion because you feel too superior to extend a rational, reasonable effort to make it work demeans the profession.

This is flawed thinking. If pilots cleaning the cabin or helping the FAs straighten out a couple of rows prevents the airline from sinking into financial oblivion, then we have got some serious flaws in our industry....

There are just simply too many [professional] pilots out there that feel the success of the airline on their shoulders. The airline, or any company for that matter, is designed to succeed with each employee doing their own job! If not, then management needs to revisit the business plan. Maybe jB is???

As people we define ourselves by our ideas and thoughts. For example, "Of course I am a professional pilot, why? Because I believe I am"

Unfortunately others define us by our actions. And some of our actions just aren't that professional.

We are reactive. We respond. And therefore, we justify. Clean the cabin? Load bags? Well, ok, I guess so, I mean, there are plenty of furloughed pilots that would love to have this job, so I'll clean and load.... Or if I don't help out then that means I am rude or uncivil. I am not a nice person or good employee.

Where are we getting the definition of a Professional Pilot? Or rather, WHO is defining what is a Professional Pilot? Are pilots doing any defining?

 

[TonyC]

I am not required to clean the cabin. It's as simple as that.

Copy that, 5 x 5

Has anyone at your company ever made a statement which contradicts someone else's statement?

Oh, no. Never. My company is absolutely perfect in every way. I worship the ground Fred Smith walks on. I would do this job for free.

I guess whoever put this on the website saw a common practice and thought it was procedure or policy.

I suspect the guilty party has been following Flight Info and just wanted to aggravate GE CF-34 and me.

If someone fails to apply at JetBlue because of this issue, I suppose it's just as well. They wouldn't like it here if they think helping in the cabin is below them.

Once more, with feeling: I do not believe cleaning is beneath anybody. That's not the issue.

 

[ultrarunner]

I was looking at the Jetblue website under pilot employment and saw this:

• All Crewmembers must assist with light cleaning of the cabin between flights

Is that a requirement of all pilots there? What does this entail specifically?


[/b]

FOR THE LUV OF BUDDA, HERE WE GO AGAIN.

GOOD GRIEF!

It means if you have time during the freaking quick-turn, you help the cabin-crew clean up the back!

THAT's what it means.

Think of it like helping your wife clean up the kitchen. Do you need it written down, or do you freaking know what to do.

Good GOD.

Ahhh...that's better...time for bed. 'night

 

[Dizel8]

I must agree with the dissenters. I think it is most unfortunate, that this shows up under job duties and that it is expected.

Certainly I help clean, I have since day one. If it helps the F/A's and help flights stay on time, I can see no reason not to chip in. Having said that, I am employed as a pilot and my primary duties are those customarily involved in flying airplanes, cleaning an airplane is not part of those duties.

Helping to clean builds team spirit and it shows, that we are working together as a group. One could take it as far as going above and beyond. Something we all do day in and day out. However, to make it part of the job description is a bit much and I would prefer to see it removed.

I think the system works well without this being expected. We have those who will and we have those who will not help clean, to each his own. I would certainly stand behind a guy, if his only fault was not cleaning the airplane, but I sincerely doubt anyone would ever get in trouble for not assisting in this task.

 

[Dizel8]

Ultrarunner says: "It means if you have time during the freaking quick-turn, you help the cabin-crew clean up the back"!

While that may be the true intent, that is not what it says nor how I read it. It says MUST, which, if I understand must correctly, means that you will and are expected to do it.

 

[Eagleflip]

Tony--nice reply. In all frankness, perhaps two questions that must be asked are these...

What defines a professional pilot?

What constitutes a professional pilot wage?

Geez...talk about digging up a dead horse for future flogging!! In any case, these are indeed the true questions at hand.

Anybody?

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . .
Think of it like helping your wife clean up the kitchen. Do you need it written down, or do you freaking know what to do.. . . <snip>. .

.
.
.
. . .with thinking like this, women will soon expect to vote or drive cars!!!
.
.
.

 

[SWAdude]

Tony,

I am not required to clean the cabin. It's as simple as that.

It is in no manual or job description that I have ever seen. Nor has anyone in any position of authority ever instructed me that it is required.

Whatever the website says, it is not part of our company manuals.

Of course, I do help clean (pick up trash, and straighten seat belts) about 90% of the time.

Whatever a job description on the application page says, it is not an official directive from management to employees.

Has anyone at your company ever made a statement which contradicts someone else's statement? I guess whoever put this on the website saw a common practice and thought it was procedure or policy.

If someone fails to apply at JetBlue because of this issue, I suppose it's just as well. They wouldn't like it here if they think helping in the cabin is below them.

I believe the application is a legal document that could be used in a termination case. It may not be in your manuals but this is equally expected of the pilots.

Of course I am all for the everyone pulling together to produce an appealing product for the customer while providing a good bottom line. If it is in the application I see an "expectation" of the flight crew doing some cleaning. Every time I help in the cabin the FA's will always show their appreciation. Its not ever expected for me or the person i'm flying with to help. Sometimes our pre-flight duties prevent us from helping in the back. If we were expected to clean I could see some FA's being disturbed that we didn't. But since we do not have this "expectation" they are not ever disappointed.

SWAdude

 

[Booster]

Just reviewed the current and proposed contract/agreement (call it what you want) between pilots and JB.
Cleaning is NOT part of the pilot duties.

Web site statement "must assist with light cleaning" is an unfortunate choice of words and should be changed to reflect reality. Flight Crew may help if time/work load permit.

 

[Air Biscuit]

When will pilots begin to realize enough is enough. Cleaning the cabin further degrades this profession plain and simple. What's next loading bags and fueling as well, time permitting. Give me a break, you blue drinkers make me sick. I don't see this trend stopping until the flight attendent pay scale exceeds the pilots. At this rate it won't be long.

 

[Capn Mike]

At JFK, for example, aircraft are cleaned by professional cleaners on RON's and Redeye flights. On the other flights, the Lavs are cleaned by professional cleaners and the customer service agents are the ones working the vaccum cleaners. Flight Attendants pick up trash and fold seat belts. Flight crew assist if time permits.



My take on the situation is that if I can offer 5 minutes of my time to help keep the plane on schedule then I will help out. I remember multiple times when I was at brand x airline waiting to board passengers because the "cleaners" had not serviced the aircraft yet which caused a departure delay.



The requirement for pilots to clean is not in any of my manuals as part of my responsibility nor was it listed on my application. I can only imagine that making it a requirement will somehow hinder the teamwork atmoshpere at JB. Until that time, I will continue to help voluntarily when I can.

Mike

 

[V2+10]

Cleaning the cabin further degrades this profession plain and simple.

Get over it...you'll live longer.

V2

 

[dlredline]

I believe the application is a legal document that could be used in a termination case. It may not be in your manuals but this is equally expected of the pilots. . .

Wrong. Only the information provided and attested to by an applicant (flight times, education, experience, etc.) on the application can be held against them should it be found fraudulant during the course of a background check (this is a function of the PRIA). The application is not a binding contract between 2 parties (it is an unsigned document). That is why you sign a contract after an offer of employment is made, not before. What is then contained in the manuals and signed contract defines an individuals job expectations and responsibilites.

Red

 

[SWA/FO]

You guys are trying hard to achieve that heartattack. Gotta get it.

 

[SWAdude]

Wrong. Only the information provided and attested to by an applicant (flight times, education, experience, etc.) on the application can be held against them should it be found fraudulant during the course of a background check (this is a function of the PRIA). The application is not a binding contract between 2 parties (it is an unsigned document). That is why you sign a contract after an offer of employment is made, not before. What is then contained in the manuals and signed contract defines an individuals job expectations and responsibilites.

Red

Times may have changed in todays environment of on-line applications but the only thing I signed was the application and that is the fact with the other 5 airlines I worked for. And in the application was the agreement of following the company policies. I never had to sign any contracts other than the application. At JB this could have been a wrong statement. But at other companies it may not.

No matter how you guys paint this, and it doesn't make you any less of a professional, you are expected to help with the cleaning of the aircraft. If some have a problem with this task, I can accept that also.

To each their own.

SWAdude

 

[dlredline]

. . . I never had to sign any contracts other than the application. . .

Perhaps that is because at SWA (and your previous carriers) you were bound by a collectively bargained agreement between your representative agency (SWAPA in this case) and your company. I was under the same situation at my previous carriers. Irregardless, an online application is not a contractual employment agreement, trust me on this.

Good discussion, though.

Best to ya!

Red

 

[TonyC]

..., trust me on this.

There ya have it, folks. End of discussion. Moderators please lock this thread. We're done.

 

[SWAdude]

Perhaps that is because at SWA (and your previous carriers) you were bound by a collectively bargained agreement between your representative agency (SWAPA in this case) and your company. I was under the same situation at my previous carriers. Irregardless, an online application is not a contractual employment agreement, trust me on this.

Actually only one other airline I worked for had a union at the time. And working under a collective bargaining agreement and company policy are two completely different things.

I do agree that with online applications that things have probably changed but somewhere there has to be an agreement that was signed that you follow all of the companies policies and that all of the information on the application is true.

SWAdude