Jetblue Pilots - You have to clean the cabin?

[FreightNazi]

Albie,


I appreciate your good intentions, and your points are valid. However, you may have missed a point along the way.

I have my preferences, you have preferences, everyone has their preferences. That's not the issue. When I'm diggin' through the cooler for a bottle of water, I always grab 2, wrap one in a paper towel, and offer it to the Captain. I've never had a Captain that if he reached the cooler first didn't offer one to me. We're all in the same boat when it comes to extending common courtesy. I understand that offering to help straighten seat belts and pick up magazines is an extension of courtesy, it is appreciated by those whose responsibility it is to do those things, and pitching in helps build team morale. I have no problem with that. I carry the trash bag out of the cockpit to the back after a flight if the Captain doesn't get it first, and I don't think twice about it.

The subject, however, of Jetblue pilots cleaning the cabin has come up time and time again on this forum. The accusation has been made that the pilots are required to do it; the answer has always been, no, we're not required, we just do it because we're nice and . . . all that stuff above, that I happen to agree with. I believe I even mentioned somewhere along the way that if JetBlue expects to do those quick turns, they might invest in some cleaning crews rather than DEPEND on the goodwill of the pilots. Naturally, that didn't go over very well.

NOW, though, it appears that cleaning the cabins is a REQUIREMENT, codified, written, enforceable. If it's required, it's no longer a choice, and if it's not a choice, it's not a favor offered to other team members as a gesture of goodwill and cooperation.

I have no problem with pitching in and helping fellow employees. We have a history at FedEx of pitching in and helping during peak, and at other times as well. I never walk by a package that has fallen on the ramp without pciking it up and placing it back on the belt loader or in the baggage cart or whatever. I've pushed cans, I've secured nets, gone above and beyond to get a push on time. I'm not averse to it, even if it means messing up the white shirt. I AM averse to the Company EXPECTING, REQUIRING me to do that. I don't think I'm too good to pick up trash or run a vacuum, but I feel it belittles the profession to require it. I'm not too proud to help a handler, but I feel it would cheapen the profession to make it part of the job description.

A Squared - - if you're readin' this, don't get all excited, I'm not criticizing you - - I realize that's a completely different ball of wax, it's part of THAT job.


SOooooo... current employees still have the option, but future JetBlues are required to pick up trash. Could we call this the "T" (for trash) scale?!?!?

Tony C, I agree with you 100%

 

[MCDU]

Does the cleaning include the toilets?
Our profession is not what it used to be. We have to many individuals willing to ruin this profession. My neighbors laughed when they saw pilots cleaning the cabin in FLL. Our profession has gone to a new low. We are looked at as bus drivers of the sky. I wonder what is next?
We could always help with the bags? It only takes 10 min.- 15min. to get our preflight duties complete, plus -DIFRIPS -So, that leaves 45 min. to help in loading the bags. We could also do the Wheelchair thing after landing. FL always has plenty of W/C.

Marty
6yrs and counting, with no retirement

 

[MCDU]

Pitching in to make up some time is a whole different story. But it should not be the norm.

 

[potrack]

wonder if doctors empty bed pans?

wonder if UAL Capt Al Haynes ever had to, or felt like he wanted to, pick up used diapers, used kleenex, airsick bags, and candy wrappers?

Tony C had a great post. It is one thing to help someone on your own accord, but when the company makes favors mandatory....then it is a different ballgame.

That is what the military is all about.

 

[GogglesPisano]

What a contrast to "Catch Me if you Can."

 

[CSY Mon]

Maybe that is why I busted the JB interview 4.5 years ago:

The guy I chatted with says: Okay, tell us about a time when you were dealyed on the ground, and what did you do to minimize the delay?

"Well, lemme see, yes there was a time when we were running late and the cabin was a mess, the cleaners was nowhere to be seen so I authorized extra pay for the F/As to clean it up before boarding pax".

(There was a union deal with the F/As that if they cleaned the cabin, they got $10.00 extra or some such thing. it would come into play occasioanlly. The captain could get the ball rolling if needed, so could the station manager, or Ops over the phone.)

At any rate, I told my story to the JB interview guy.
He took notes with a smile on his face and kept asking follow-up questions.

I did not get hired.
Called JB HR and asked what the problem was?
They transffered me to so and so that looked up my "record" or "profile" or whatever it is called: The final person said: Oh, ya answered wrong on one question!

Uh, what question would that be mam?

Sure enough....I should have gone back there myself and cleaned the cabin, instead off, or perhaps in addition to the 13 F/As we had doing it.

JB/s HR department obviously have never flown beaten up 747s into third world countries, nor were they aware of the cockpit workload in those situations.
With no flight-plans or clearence available and with several squaks in the log-book, as well as manual performance calculations to be computed, it would be irresponsible for the cockpit crew to run back and cross seat belts and pick up barf bags.

Moral of the story?

Should have lied and said I did it all the cabin cleaning myself.
That would have assured the HR types that this guy is really a hard working team player, not just a lazy wide body captain.

Sadly it hurts to be honest from time to time.

No hard feelings towards jetBlue however.

Had many great jumpseats there over the years, both before and after 9/11 and enjoyed every one of them...Pilots, agents and F/As have been great.

 

[Blue Dude]

NOW, though, it appears that cleaning the cabins is a REQUIREMENT, codified, written, enforceable. If it's required, it's no longer a choice, and if it's not a choice, it's not a favor offered to other team members as a gesture of goodwill and cooperation.

That about sums up why I was disappointed to read the job listing. I don't think that it translates into a mandatory job function, at least I hope not. What it does it detract from the "team spirit" aspect of pitching in. It's not helping out if it's mandatory, and that's much harder to swallow.

I still think it's a tactic to cut down on frivolous prima donna applicants. I can't imagine the backlash if a memo goes out stating that cleaning is a requirement.

 

[Eagleflip]

Tony C wrote:

 I AM averse to the Company EXPECTING, REQUIRING me to do that. I don't think I'm too good to pick up trash or run a vacuum, but I feel it belittles the profession to require it. I'm not too proud to help a handler, but I feel it would cheapen the profession to make it part of the job description.
...
SOooooo... current employees still have the option, but future JetBlues are required to pick up trash. Could we call this the "T" (for trash) scale?!?!?

TonyC, you seem to have a long-standing issue about JB'ers helping clean the cabin. In a previous thread, you went to great pains trying to identify the semantic difference between the concepts of "expected" or "voluntary" with regards to our help with the cabin cleanup. I thought your interest was somewhat peculiar, but hey...everyone is interested in different things. Now we go back to a familiar, if not thoroughly beaten, thought in this thread.

I for one do not support this new statement in the job description. We'll see if it sticks.

For what it's worth, why is this issue so important to you? Are you truly worried about our working conditions?

Or, are you worried about JB "lowering the bar?" If so, then you are (naturally) entitled to your opinion. I do not think we are doing so--I believe we are maintaining a unique (thus far) team effort that has thus far maintained a reasonable profit margin relative to the rest of the industry. I try to maintain a "reasonable man's" concept during these turns. Is this (volunteering to pick up a couple of pieces of trash and crossing belts) too tough? Nope. Does it demean my profession? Hey, some think not wearing hats demeans the profession. I personally don't think I'm too good to help do the simple job asked. In fact, I like the fact that (partially due to my help) we can get the jet turned and back to JFK for another flight quickly. That means money in my pocket at the end of the year and a flight attendant crew that knows that we give a hoot. To answer the question, no, it does not demean the profession.

Allowing your airline to sink into financial oblivion because you feel too superior to extend a rational, reasonable effort to make it work demeans the profession.

I do what I do because it suits me, and the vast majority of my fellow pilots at JB apparently agree with me to this end. Let me be clear: I do not support that line in the new job description. In that sense I agree with you, Tony. It should not be part of our official duties. And, true to that concept, there is no documented or "enforceable" provision that says we have to clean. So hey...somebody just got excited and put out a description that wasn't well thought out...no big deal.

TonyC, I simply think you are too tightly wrapped around this non-existent axle.

 

[CSY Mon]

Good post Mr. Eagleflip.


(At first I thought yer title or "handle" was in reference to American Eagle being yer present or past gig, but the quality of yer post make me look again at yer profile, aha, F-15 Eagle?)

At any rate, agree with yer rhetoric, but also agree with Mr. Tony C.

(Tony of course has more time on his hands 'cause he flies a few hours here and there at night and likes to hang out and argue with everybody and his grandmother.. )

And, uh my point is: If it feels good: Do it. If it gets the job done and gets the plane off on time, and makes for friendly F/As, do it...I would.

God knows that I have crossed thousands of seatbelts in my carrier, and picked up thousands of newspapers..if time permited.

When given the choice in the past, working for carriers with both pax and freight planes, I'd always bid the freighters, more time off, more money, less stress and no pax/F/As, etc.

Cool Blue is surely a good gig, but I would rather take the hat and the clapped out freighter in the middle of nowhere with a hydraluic leak somewhere in the system and overtime rolling in while we are stuck on the ground and sleeping in the crew bunks on the upper deck...$85.00 per hour around the clock in addition to flight pay..Good old days and no cabin to clean...

 

[KC-10 Driver]

Tony,

I am not required to clean the cabin. It's as simple as that.

It is in no manual or job description that I have ever seen. Nor has anyone in any position of authority ever instructed me that it is required.

Whatever the website says, it is not part of our company manuals.

Of course, I do help clean (pick up trash, and straighten seat belts) about 90% of the time.

Whatever a job description on the application page says, it is not an official directive from management to employees.

Has anyone at your company ever made a statement which contradicts someone else's statement? I guess whoever put this on the website saw a common practice and thought it was procedure or policy.

If someone fails to apply at JetBlue because of this issue, I suppose it's just as well. They wouldn't like it here if they think helping in the cabin is below them.

 

[TonyC]

TonyC, you seem to have a long-standing issue about JB'ers helping clean the cabin. In a previous thread, you went to great pains trying to identify the semantic difference between the concepts of "expected" or "voluntary" with regards to our help with the cabin cleanup. I thought your interest was somewhat peculiar, but hey...everyone is interested in different things. Now we go back to a familiar, if not thoroughly beaten, thought in this thread.

I expressed interest in the concept when I first learned of it. I was curious. Was it voluntary (sounds good to me) or mandatory (sounds bad to me)? Yes, we did discuss the concept of "expected." When somebody "expects" me to routinely do them a favor, the whole act of volunteering takes on a whole new flavor. In any event, y'all had me convinced it was, for the most part, voluntary.

The job posting seems to indicate otherwise.

I for one do not support this new statement in the job description.

On this point, we agree.

For what it's worth, why is this issue so important to you? Are you truly worried about our working conditions?

You might find this difficult to believe, but yes, I am. I believe you deserve to be treated with respect. I believe the way you are treated affects the way I'm treated, and vice versa. If you're volunteering to clean the cabin, you maintain your respect, and you gain the admiration of those you help. If you're expected to clean the cabin, your respect is whittled away into something less than professional. Furthermore, if you're reduced to a common worker who can, coincidentally, program the FMS, you shouldn't expect to ever earn the wage of a professional pilot. If every pilot in the industry except Jet Blue volunteers to give up per diem, I believe Jet Blue would expect its pilots to give up per diem, too. We're in the profession together.

TonyC, I simply think you are too tightly wrapped around this non-existent axle.

I'm not wrapped a bit, but it would appear that there IS an axle here.

 

[TonyC]

(Tony of course has more time on his hands 'cause he flies a few hours here and there at night and likes to hang out and argue with everybody and his grandmother.. )

I try to stick to day flying, and I know better than to try to argue with a grandmother!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Allowing your airline to sink into financial oblivion because you feel too superior to extend a rational, reasonable effort to make it work demeans the profession.

This is flawed thinking. If pilots cleaning the cabin or helping the FAs straighten out a couple of rows prevents the airline from sinking into financial oblivion, then we have got some serious flaws in our industry....

There are just simply too many [professional] pilots out there that feel the success of the airline on their shoulders. The airline, or any company for that matter, is designed to succeed with each employee doing their own job! If not, then management needs to revisit the business plan. Maybe jB is???

As people we define ourselves by our ideas and thoughts. For example, "Of course I am a professional pilot, why? Because I believe I am"

Unfortunately others define us by our actions. And some of our actions just aren't that professional.

We are reactive. We respond. And therefore, we justify. Clean the cabin? Load bags? Well, ok, I guess so, I mean, there are plenty of furloughed pilots that would love to have this job, so I'll clean and load.... Or if I don't help out then that means I am rude or uncivil. I am not a nice person or good employee.

Where are we getting the definition of a Professional Pilot? Or rather, WHO is defining what is a Professional Pilot? Are pilots doing any defining?

 

[TonyC]

I am not required to clean the cabin. It's as simple as that.

Copy that, 5 x 5

Has anyone at your company ever made a statement which contradicts someone else's statement?

Oh, no. Never. My company is absolutely perfect in every way. I worship the ground Fred Smith walks on. I would do this job for free.

I guess whoever put this on the website saw a common practice and thought it was procedure or policy.

I suspect the guilty party has been following Flight Info and just wanted to aggravate GE CF-34 and me.

If someone fails to apply at JetBlue because of this issue, I suppose it's just as well. They wouldn't like it here if they think helping in the cabin is below them.

Once more, with feeling: I do not believe cleaning is beneath anybody. That's not the issue.

 

[ultrarunner]

I was looking at the Jetblue website under pilot employment and saw this:

• All Crewmembers must assist with light cleaning of the cabin between flights

Is that a requirement of all pilots there? What does this entail specifically?


[/b]

FOR THE LUV OF BUDDA, HERE WE GO AGAIN.

GOOD GRIEF!

It means if you have time during the freaking quick-turn, you help the cabin-crew clean up the back!

THAT's what it means.

Think of it like helping your wife clean up the kitchen. Do you need it written down, or do you freaking know what to do.

Good GOD.

Ahhh...that's better...time for bed. 'night

 

[Dizel8]

I must agree with the dissenters. I think it is most unfortunate, that this shows up under job duties and that it is expected.

Certainly I help clean, I have since day one. If it helps the F/A's and help flights stay on time, I can see no reason not to chip in. Having said that, I am employed as a pilot and my primary duties are those customarily involved in flying airplanes, cleaning an airplane is not part of those duties.

Helping to clean builds team spirit and it shows, that we are working together as a group. One could take it as far as going above and beyond. Something we all do day in and day out. However, to make it part of the job description is a bit much and I would prefer to see it removed.

I think the system works well without this being expected. We have those who will and we have those who will not help clean, to each his own. I would certainly stand behind a guy, if his only fault was not cleaning the airplane, but I sincerely doubt anyone would ever get in trouble for not assisting in this task.

 

[Dizel8]

Ultrarunner says: "It means if you have time during the freaking quick-turn, you help the cabin-crew clean up the back"!

While that may be the true intent, that is not what it says nor how I read it. It says MUST, which, if I understand must correctly, means that you will and are expected to do it.

 

[Eagleflip]

Tony--nice reply. In all frankness, perhaps two questions that must be asked are these...

What defines a professional pilot?

What constitutes a professional pilot wage?

Geez...talk about digging up a dead horse for future flogging!! In any case, these are indeed the true questions at hand.

Anybody?

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . .
Think of it like helping your wife clean up the kitchen. Do you need it written down, or do you freaking know what to do.. . . <snip>. .

.
.
.
. . .with thinking like this, women will soon expect to vote or drive cars!!!
.
.
.

 

[SWAdude]

Tony,

I am not required to clean the cabin. It's as simple as that.

It is in no manual or job description that I have ever seen. Nor has anyone in any position of authority ever instructed me that it is required.

Whatever the website says, it is not part of our company manuals.

Of course, I do help clean (pick up trash, and straighten seat belts) about 90% of the time.

Whatever a job description on the application page says, it is not an official directive from management to employees.

Has anyone at your company ever made a statement which contradicts someone else's statement? I guess whoever put this on the website saw a common practice and thought it was procedure or policy.

If someone fails to apply at JetBlue because of this issue, I suppose it's just as well. They wouldn't like it here if they think helping in the cabin is below them.

I believe the application is a legal document that could be used in a termination case. It may not be in your manuals but this is equally expected of the pilots.

Of course I am all for the everyone pulling together to produce an appealing product for the customer while providing a good bottom line. If it is in the application I see an "expectation" of the flight crew doing some cleaning. Every time I help in the cabin the FA's will always show their appreciation. Its not ever expected for me or the person i'm flying with to help. Sometimes our pre-flight duties prevent us from helping in the back. If we were expected to clean I could see some FA's being disturbed that we didn't. But since we do not have this "expectation" they are not ever disappointed.

SWAdude

 

[Booster]

Just reviewed the current and proposed contract/agreement (call it what you want) between pilots and JB.
Cleaning is NOT part of the pilot duties.

Web site statement "must assist with light cleaning" is an unfortunate choice of words and should be changed to reflect reality. Flight Crew may help if time/work load permit.

 

[Air Biscuit]

When will pilots begin to realize enough is enough. Cleaning the cabin further degrades this profession plain and simple. What's next loading bags and fueling as well, time permitting. Give me a break, you blue drinkers make me sick. I don't see this trend stopping until the flight attendent pay scale exceeds the pilots. At this rate it won't be long.

 

[Capn Mike]

At JFK, for example, aircraft are cleaned by professional cleaners on RON's and Redeye flights. On the other flights, the Lavs are cleaned by professional cleaners and the customer service agents are the ones working the vaccum cleaners. Flight Attendants pick up trash and fold seat belts. Flight crew assist if time permits.



My take on the situation is that if I can offer 5 minutes of my time to help keep the plane on schedule then I will help out. I remember multiple times when I was at brand x airline waiting to board passengers because the "cleaners" had not serviced the aircraft yet which caused a departure delay.



The requirement for pilots to clean is not in any of my manuals as part of my responsibility nor was it listed on my application. I can only imagine that making it a requirement will somehow hinder the teamwork atmoshpere at JB. Until that time, I will continue to help voluntarily when I can.

Mike

 

[V2+10]

Cleaning the cabin further degrades this profession plain and simple.

Get over it...you'll live longer.

V2

 

[dlredline]

I believe the application is a legal document that could be used in a termination case. It may not be in your manuals but this is equally expected of the pilots. . .

Wrong. Only the information provided and attested to by an applicant (flight times, education, experience, etc.) on the application can be held against them should it be found fraudulant during the course of a background check (this is a function of the PRIA). The application is not a binding contract between 2 parties (it is an unsigned document). That is why you sign a contract after an offer of employment is made, not before. What is then contained in the manuals and signed contract defines an individuals job expectations and responsibilites.

Red

 

[SWA/FO]

You guys are trying hard to achieve that heartattack. Gotta get it.

 

[SWAdude]

Wrong. Only the information provided and attested to by an applicant (flight times, education, experience, etc.) on the application can be held against them should it be found fraudulant during the course of a background check (this is a function of the PRIA). The application is not a binding contract between 2 parties (it is an unsigned document). That is why you sign a contract after an offer of employment is made, not before. What is then contained in the manuals and signed contract defines an individuals job expectations and responsibilites.

Red

Times may have changed in todays environment of on-line applications but the only thing I signed was the application and that is the fact with the other 5 airlines I worked for. And in the application was the agreement of following the company policies. I never had to sign any contracts other than the application. At JB this could have been a wrong statement. But at other companies it may not.

No matter how you guys paint this, and it doesn't make you any less of a professional, you are expected to help with the cleaning of the aircraft. If some have a problem with this task, I can accept that also.

To each their own.

SWAdude

 

[dlredline]

. . . I never had to sign any contracts other than the application. . .

Perhaps that is because at SWA (and your previous carriers) you were bound by a collectively bargained agreement between your representative agency (SWAPA in this case) and your company. I was under the same situation at my previous carriers. Irregardless, an online application is not a contractual employment agreement, trust me on this.

Good discussion, though.

Best to ya!

Red

 

[TonyC]

..., trust me on this.

There ya have it, folks. End of discussion. Moderators please lock this thread. We're done.

 

[SWAdude]

Perhaps that is because at SWA (and your previous carriers) you were bound by a collectively bargained agreement between your representative agency (SWAPA in this case) and your company. I was under the same situation at my previous carriers. Irregardless, an online application is not a contractual employment agreement, trust me on this.

Actually only one other airline I worked for had a union at the time. And working under a collective bargaining agreement and company policy are two completely different things.

I do agree that with online applications that things have probably changed but somewhere there has to be an agreement that was signed that you follow all of the companies policies and that all of the information on the application is true.

SWAdude