Jetblue Pilots' barrel bobbing closer the waterfalls edge...

[Dizel8]

Although the LH scenario as Rez. described is a bit farfetched, there are plenty of reasons to worry about scope.

 

[Splert]

Where do the funds originate....

I agree, the funds can't come from the company.

They will have to come from the pilots directly and not indirect or directly from the $2,000,000 mirage that is in our PEA.

 

[Dizel8]

All of us should be worried:

"A British Airways (BAY.L) spokesman expressed disappointment in the slow pace of progress.
"We had hoped that the conclusion of the second stage negotiations would have resulted in the immediate removal of restrictions on ownership and control, Fly America and cabotage," he said. Cabotage is the right to transport of goods or passengers within the borders of another country."

 

[bluesideup340]

Actually, as I stated, in the future, why would cheaper pilots not do you flying? You've no scope protections. I would think that the massive outsourcing of labor in the US would be telling. Do you actually think that investors view pilots differently than from, say Levi jeans labor in the the US?

Yes I do. Levi’s jeans as a US cooperation moved production overseas. On the other hand, foreign ownership does not mean production is moved overseas. Look at direct investments by Toyota, Siemens, etc. These organizations invested in the US to produce and operate in the US, hiring US employees, and comply with US immigration and labor laws.

What does open skies mean? More opportunity for pilots who....

Open sky means free market forces can work as they are supposed too.

It has nothing to do with stabilizing the US airline industry... that is the job of govt and CEO's who choose to look beyond profits (Herb K?)

I never really advocated ALPA... just representation... do you want to make this an ALPA debate or a representation/scope debate?

After deregulation the weak organizational structure and the lack of vision of ALPA, Teamsters, APA, USAPA, etc. representation is done very little to stabilize the careers of the pilots these organizations allegedly represent. I love it when the Union types like you blame everything on management when things go bad but never accept any responsibility for their own actions in the past. Don’t take me wrong Management has to be responsible too but Unions has done not much in the last 30 years for Pilots.

Where to gain something by working for a LH subsidiary... explain...

Working for a financial stable company sound good to me.

JB simply provides the feed to JFK... LH takes those pax and flies them from JFK to LAX, SFO, SYD, Hong Kong, etc....

Please, build a business case and an aircraft rotation plan for your hypothesis.
Sending an Aircraft in PAX service around the globe is uneconomical. Do you remember when TWA and PanAm had these satellite operations in Europe?
TWA and PanAm came inbound from the US to FRA and flow all over Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and India. Do you have any idea what happened?

Then why does the EU want access?

Because of the economy of scale

You might come out clean in the end.... are you willing to risk a decade of seniorty over no representation?

Listen I lost seniority because of ALPA’s fantastic representation. I know you are not here to push ALPA although we all know you are ALPA cheerleader on this board, well whatever floats your boat. In short, representation got me absolutely nothing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes I do. Levi’s jeans as a US cooperation moved production overseas. On the other hand, foreign ownership does not mean production is moved overseas. Look at direct investments by Toyota, Siemens, etc. These organizations invested in the US to produce and operate in the US, hiring US employees, and comply with US immigration and labor laws.

Again.... you can't move a factory very easily.... you can move a jet very easily... meaning with no scope.... management can bring any pilot group in to fly "JB routes and jets". However, it isn't even really owned by the JB pilots because they've created no legal ownership to their work.

Again... the JB pilot door is unlocked with a sign that says Plenty of Vacancy, we're open, free for the taking...

Then there is the other issue of JB pilots simply being "crewmembers" just like FAs, gate agents and rampers. Until you organize, your health and 401k will be fit for a ramper. Maybe its me, but I think a JB pilot who has far greater education, training and responsbility should have a better 401k.

Open sky means free market forces can work as they are supposed too.

Free market forces mean that when you become expensive, if you don't have representation and rights... you get outsourced. You need to explain why this won't happen to JB pilots. Continuity of brand is a valid arguement if LH didn't own 19%.

After deregulation the weak organizational structure and the lack of vision of ALPA, Teamsters, APA, USAPA, etc. representation is done very little to stabilize the careers of the pilots these organizations allegedly represent.

Why do you assume that labor unions in the US should have the power to hold back the free market...??

Labor unions in the EU are having a hard time and they are more labor friendly...

I love it when the Union types like you blame everything on management when things go bad but never accept any responsibility for their own actions in the past.

Negative... ALPA ML pilots giving away scope for pay rates on WB jets was bad form. It is hurting them big time. UAL pilots striking over the the B scale in 85 was a win....

You can't win every fight in politics. Why do pilots expect unions to have an all win/zero loss record?
[QUUOTE]

Don’t take me wrong Management has to be responsible too but Unions has done not much in the last 30 years for Pilots.
[/QUOTE]No, you are a jaded TWA pilot... and you've placed yourself into a bubble of denial and blue juice that your management will "take care" of you.

Working for a financial stable company sound good to me.

That means nothing really..... it certainly doesn't ensure a stable career.....

Tell us why for certain that JB won't be another Morris Air... sold off. JB can be simply used to create a market of routes and customers only to be sold off to LH or another company... Take Reno Air as an example...

The Morris Air pilots were lucky that SWA bought them... the Frontier pilots are seeing what happens when SWA doesn't acquire them.....

Please, build a business case and an aircraft rotation plan for your hypothesis.
Sending an Aircraft in PAX service around the globe is uneconomical. Do you remember when TWA and PanAm had these satellite operations in Europe?
TWA and PanAm came inbound from the US to FRA and flow all over Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and India. Do you have any idea what happened?

I am not a airline planner or industry economist.... however, you example fails because PAA and TWA were stand alone brands not part of a global alliance, such as the Star Alliance.... These alliances are becoming global powerhouses... where does little JB fit into this?

You are starting to show that your understanding of airlines is old 20th Century TWA and JB. Respectfully, JB pilots live in an isolated world in terms of what is going on in the global airline industry. How are JB pilots staying active and informed? What committees are they members of with other pilot groups that are informed and work the issues as part of these gloabl alliances?

Because of the economy of scale

You stated that the US market was not viable... in fact you stated...

Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.

Now its economy of scale?

Listen I lost seniority because of ALPA’s fantastic representation.

I know you are not here to push ALPA although we all know you are ALPA cheerleader on this board, well whatever floats your boat. In short, representation got me absolutely nothing.

no doubt... the question here is.... what is no representation going to get you and your pilots when JB is in play? If your game plan is hoping that the free market will leave JB alone or shine favorable upon yourselves because you are great guys, then good luck.... are you willing to lose seniority all over again?


If I were a JB pilot I'd feel like I was walking around knowing not when a 2x4 was waiting for me across the forehead... but that is just me... There are plenty of pilots there that are quite content....

However, when the pilot group reaches critical mass and consensus dictates representation.... it will be too late..... in order to be effective, representation was needed years ago.... You can't feel the pain of having no scope, quickly 'organize' and expect results.....

With LH owning 19% it might not be a choice your management team has.....

 

[Full of LUV]

Simple because we are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world.


Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.



Well if you want to be scared be scared. By you own admission there is very little the International Federation of Pilots or ALPA can do. In the case of ALPA it should not come as a surprise. ALPA has not credibility domestically why do you believe it would be different internationally.

Blueside,
First as an observer, I believe the yields in Europe have to probably make the American execs shudder. You can often fly across Europe for the price of a 10 block cab ride in NYC, or any European city for that matter. The Europe market has been decimated by Easyjet, Ryan air and a host of cherrypicker airlines that pick a few profitable air routes and fly charter or limited service in Allegiant style.
The old, well paying "legacy" airlines in Europe are stagnant or shrinking and there are no new prospects of growth. The upstarts seem to rule the day. The pilot profession over there has the legacy professionals with a large cadre of vagabond experienced pilots who go from job to job depending on the financial state of their contract agency. On the face of it, they seem like well paying jobs (compared to the us regional pay scales) but skin deep, they are short term with little to no security and living in your base, forget about it.
Bottom line, US is a growth area and if cabotage is allowed, there will be an invasion that makes VA seem like a toy soldier. Does an American company want to fly from England to France, not hardly, does AF want to fly from NY to LA and fill in the wholes with local pax, you betcha.

I don't have a clue how this will play out for JB or any particular airline, but to think that cabotage will be a nonevent for a US pilot is the epitome of niavete.

Lastly, you seem to think that it is ALPA's job to prevent the airlines from going out of business or keep mgt from making poor decisions, or stop the free market. I submit that ALPA's job should be to protect the profession, and keep mgt from forcing labor to pay for their mismanagement. Eastern should have gone out of business if the option was that or work for half wages. Same with TWA, Pan Am, etc. US Air is doing more harm by continuing with their lame contract than would be realized by their extinction.

If I ran ALPA, I would push for min wages to be a "professional" pilot and the Mesa's of the world and any other mutually agreed substandard contract carriers would be forced out of business through limited access to the jumpseat. After all, professional pilots enable pilots working for substandard wages daily to continue to undermine the profession. People will fly, it should be alpa's mission to make sure as many do with professional pilots as possible.
LUV