Jetblue Pilots' barrel bobbing closer the waterfalls edge...

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As Open Skies negotiations continue to progress, the liberalisation of the global airline industry continues.

Jetblue may or may not be prime for a buyout, but as the article states... what did LH buy jetblue?

Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary. (Lufthansa didn’t buy 19% of JetBlue merely as a financial investment.) Indeed, many airline executives believe the U.S. and EU should be considered one market for air travel, just as the EU nations are now.
​

So what happens to the pilot group if jetblue gets bought? Does the PVC have legal standing to represent the pilots.




Why the New EU-U.S. Open Skies Accord Leaves Europeans Grimacing

Posted by: Justin Bachman on March 25, 2010
The United States and European Union on Thursday announced an accord for the second phase of the 2007 Open Skies treaty that opened the EU to U.S. airlines. The deal was greeted with praise from the Air Transport Association, the trade group for U.S. carriers, and disappointment from the International Air Transport Association, the Geneva-based group representing 230 international airlines. “It is disappointing that, at this critical time, we did not make significant progress on the issue of ownership,” Giovanni Bisignani (right), IATA’s CEO and Director General, said in a Mar. 25 statement. “The agreement was not a step backwards, but it did not move us forward.” A day earlier, in a speech in Chile, Bisignani again sounded the horn for more liberalization: “If short-sighted politics does not impede long-term good sense we could see a breakthrough.”
Why this divergence? To be blunt, big European airlines feel they got very little in this agreement. The Open Skies goal for Europe ’s large international airlines – as I noted in February 2009 – has always been the ability to do business in the world’s largest air travel market unfettered by ownership restrictions. The agreement calls for the U.S. to work toward loosening the 25% foreign ownership restrictions on U.S. airlines but no one in the entire debate believes Congress will change that law. It is true that Open Skies, part two, allows for EU carriers to begin new service from the U.S. to non-EU countries but it’s difficult to envision a compelling commercial case for such flights. U.S. airlines can legally do this in the EU now but how many are flying around the Continent with new standalone businesses? Zero. The new ability for Lufthansa or Air France to launch flights from, say, New York to Buenos Aires doesn’t mean a lot financially. Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary. (Lufthansa didn’t buy 19% of JetBlue merely as a financial investment.) Indeed, many airline executives believe the U.S. and EU should be considered one market for air travel, just as the EU nations are now.
For all the airlines, the big threat was that the whole Open Skies accord could dissolve, which for U.S. carriers would have meant restricted access to Europe. That did not happen in the new deal, hence the positive comments from the ATA, Continental, and United on Thursday. Moreover, there will be new cooperation on security and environmental issues, two subjects that bedevil airlines on both sides of the Atlantic. But as for the prospect of non-Americans controlling U.S. airlines, well, don’t expect that to happen any time soon.


http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/travelers_check/archives/2010/03/why_the_new_us-.html

 

[Splert]

Does the PVC have legal standing to represent the pilots.

Yes...

It would be considered an ad hoc committee and I would much rather prefer and exclusive committee that has the legal backing to prevent multiple ad hoc groups from forming or being used against us.

Bottom line the PVC is a weak but a legal representative under the RLA.

 

[Jetjockey]

Keep your Euros off my job!

 

[bluesideup340]

As Open Skies negotiations continue to progress, the liberalisation of the global airline industry continues.

Jetblue may or may not be prime for a buyout, but as the article states... what did LH buy jetblue?

So what happens to the pilot group if jetblue gets bought? Does the PVC have legal standing to represent the pilots.

Rez
Your speculation on the future of JetBlue is a waste of time. In previous post you provided ample prove that you have very little understanding or interest facing the actual and real economic realities in the airline industry. I while bac,k you and I discussed the economic realities of foreign ownership here on this board, which was a colossal waste of my time. Because you insisted that changes in foreign ownership rules would mean low-cost eastern European pilots will fly domestically. However, the economic realities do not support such fear. The article in your post, makes the following assertion:
“ It is true that Open Skies, part two, allows for EU carriers to begin new service from the U.S. to non-EU countries but it’s difficult to envision a compelling commercial case for such flights. U.S. airlines can legally do this in the EU now but how many are flying around the Continent with new standalone businesses? Zero. The new ability for Lufthansa or Air France to launch flights from, say, New York to Buenos Aires doesn’t mean a lot financially. Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary.”
That being said, I would not mind working for a Lufthansa subsidiary, which would be the same as working for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Boehringer, Kuehn & Nagel, Deutsche Bank, Bayer, Wuerth, AEG, etc. in the USA.
Rez, I know from reading your posts you are a true ALPA supporter. But instead of making a big deal of what might or might not happen to JetBlue in the future. Why don’t you take all that time and energy of yours, and fix ALPA; turn the Association into a Union and then we talk again.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes...

It would be considered an ad hoc committee and I would much rather prefer and exclusive committee that has the legal backing to prevent multiple ad hoc groups from forming or being used against us.

Bottom line the PVC is a weak but a legal representative under the RLA.

Where do the funds originate....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because you insisted that changes in foreign ownership rules would mean low-cost eastern European pilots will fly domestically. However, the economic realities do not support such fear. The article in your post, makes the following assertion:
“ It is true that Open Skies, part two, allows for EU carriers to begin new service from the U.S. to non-EU countries but it’s difficult to envision a compelling commercial case for such flights. U.S. airlines can legally do this in the EU now but how many are flying around the Continent with new standalone businesses? Zero. The new ability for Lufthansa or Air France to launch flights from, say, New York to Buenos Aires doesn’t mean a lot financially. Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary.”
That being said, I would not mind working for a Lufthansa subsidiary, which would be the same as working for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Boehringer, Kuehn & Nagel, Deutsche Bank, Bayer, Wuerth, AEG, etc. in the USA.

Why do you assume that changes in the US/EU open skies agreement will be favorable to JB pilots? Who is representing the JB pilots at the US/EU open skies negotiations?

In addition, why would working for a LH subsidiary in the US, (under US labor law most likely) provide the social and labor advantages of German law?

Currently in the EU, as economic barriers are lifted, labor is wondering how to apply local labor law exclusive to its own country to countries across the continent.

So why would JB pilots working for a LH subsidiary be an advantage?

Rez, I know from reading your posts you are a true ALPA supporter. But instead of making a big deal of what might or might not happen to JetBlue in the future. Why don’t you take all that time and energy of yours, and fix ALPA; turn the Association into a Union and then we talk again.

Interestingly, I am doing both....

What are the Jetblue pilots going to do about possible changes in US/EU Open skies agreements if/when LH can exercise 5th or 7th freedoms? Suddenly the US transcon flying in jB A320s is done by LH A330s and B747s.

Now, jb pilots simply become a feeder service for LH and Austrian as these two EU companies flying WB jets from JFK and MCO to other large US markets as well as int'l markets such as Sydney, Hong Kong and Johannesburg (or wherever). Throw in the Star Alliance and an A380 is flying huge amounts of jetblue passengers globally. (as you know an EU carrier can fly from any EU city to the US. For example, LH can fly Paris to MCO)

In addition, what is to stop the Star Alliance from feeding its own WB jets in JFK and MCO with UAL, CAL, USAIR, Air Canada passengers? In time what is to stop Shanghai Airlines from getting rights to operate a base out of Mexico City or Toronto and using cabatoge to move what were JB passengers onto Star Alliance WB jets?

Its called scope. The EU desperately wants access to the lucrative US air market. They want cabatoge in the US. They didn't get it this week, but they will be back as a joint committee was set up to revisit the issue.

Even unionized pilots groups like UAL are having a hard time of it and they are plugged into the Int'l Federation of pilot groups as well as Star Alliance pilot groups.... Why are JB pilots different or exempt?

It is simply mind blowing to think what could happen when you have no scope or representation. It's like leaving your front door unlocked and vacancy sign lit up.... anyone can come in and make themselves at home in your house.

In order to be effective, JB pilots needed a representational structure years ago. It's like trying to put on a seat belt after an accident, thinking it will change what has already occurred.

 

[motch]

What are the Jetblue pilots going to do about possible changes in US/EU Open skies agreements if/when LH can exercise 5th or 7th freedoms? Suddenly the US transcon flying in jB A320s is done by LH A330s and B747s.

Now, jb pilots simply become a feeder service for LH and Austrian as these two EU companies flying WB jets from JFK and MCO to other large US markets as well as int'l markets such as Sydney, Hong Kong and Johannesburg (or wherever). Throw in the Star Alliance and an A380 is flying huge amounts of jetblue passengers globally. (as you know an EU carrier can fly from any EU city to the US. For example, LH can fly Paris to MCO)

In addition, what is to stop the Star Alliance from feeding its own WB jets in JFK and MCO with UAL, CAL, USAIR, Air Canada passengers? In time what is to stop Shanghai Airlines from getting rights to operate a base out of Mexico City or Toronto and using cabatoge to move what were JB passengers onto Star Alliance WB jets?

I'll add something.
The though of a Lufty 380 coming into JFK and then going on to LAX is plausible. But let me ask you this-
That same 380 was suppose to turn around and head back to Europe. Now it's not.
So what heads back to Europe?
Is it replaced by another Star Alliance aircraft (CAL/UAL) that goes from NYC to Frankfurt and then, from Frankfurt it goes to somewhere else in Europe and then back to the states?

In the end, aircraft doing multiple stops within a region will require more crews and some sort of basing or at least extended overnights.

Union protection and more importantly, union pilot groups working together will protect us and allow us to maximize our fleets and networks to the best.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll add something.
The though of a Lufty 380 coming into JFK and then going on to LAX is plausible. But let me ask you this-
That same 380 was suppose to turn around and head back to Europe. Now it's not.
So what heads back to Europe?
Is it replaced by another Star Alliance aircraft (CAL/UAL) that goes from NYC to Frankfurt and then, from Frankfurt it goes to somewhere else in Europe and then back to the states?

In the end, aircraft doing multiple stops within a region will require more crews and some sort of basing or at least extended overnights.

Union protection and more importantly, union pilot groups working together will protect us and allow us to maximize our fleets and networks to the best.

Tens of A380s/B747-8....

One set 'starts' east bound.. the other set 'starts' west bound.... all they do is fly around the globe in opposite directions hitting the large markets, picking up and dropping off pax, all within the Star Alliance, oneworld or SkyTeam.....


JB pilots with no scope and no representation in the Star Allinace Pilot group or oneworld or Skyteam may be treated well....by investors.... or they might be turned into a glorified regional feeding wide bodies.....


I'd rather have representation than not...... but when LH controls 19%, I am sure ze Germans have a say....

 

[bluesideup340]

Why do you assume that changes in the US/EU open skies agreement will be favorable to JB pilots?

Simple because we are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world.

Who is representing the JB pilots at the US/EU open skies negotiations?

First, open skies negotiations does not mean the sky is not falling as you and ALPA wants us to believe and second, ALPA has done absolutely nothing nor shown leadership to stabilize the US airline industry (i.e. Regional Airline debacle). In fact, ALPA as an organization is so weak and ineffective in the US on its home turf why would I believe they have more to offer in the international arena?

In addition, why would working for a LH subsidiary in the US, (under US labor law most likely) provide the social and labor advantages of German law?

Rez, this make no sense I never claimed German law would be applied in the US nor is this even debated anywhere.

Currently in the EU, as economic barriers are lifted, labor is wondering how to apply local labor law exclusive to its own country to countries across the continent.
So why would JB pilots working for a LH subsidiary be an advantage?

No need to further debate this here the EU court will take up this issue and rule on this in the future for the EU. ALPA or for this matter no other outside the EU organization will or has any influence in this.
I never said JB pilots would have an advantage I simply stated I would not mind. That is all.

Interestingly, I am doing both....

Good for You

What are the Jetblue pilots going to do about possible changes in US/EU Open skies agreements if/when LH can exercise 5th or 7th freedoms? Suddenly the US transcon flying in jB A320s is done by LH A330s and B747s.

JB will not do much nor is there any need to do much, because what you are proposing is simply not a profitable allocation of assets. We had this discussion before but if you like please provide a city pairs and an aircraft rotation schedule to make this service work

Now, jb pilots simply become a feeder service for LH and Austrian as these two EU companies flying WB jets from JFK and MCO to other large US markets as well as int'l markets such as Sydney, Hong Kong and Johannesburg (or wherever). Throw in the Star Alliance and an A380 is flying huge amounts of jetblue passengers globally. (as you know an EU carrier can fly from any EU city to the US. For example, LH can fly Paris to MCO)

This is nothing new it is called a code-share. Do you know how many Delta flight domestically are operated under an international code-share? How about the Delta domestic code share with Midwest Express? While your ALPA brothers at Midwest lost their jobs ALPA biggest carrier is profiting- How about that.

In addition, what is to stop the Star Alliance from feeding its own WB jets in JFK and MCO with UAL, CAL, USAIR, Air Canada passengers? In time what is to stop Shanghai Airlines from getting rights to operate a base out of Mexico City or Toronto and using cabatoge to move what were JB passengers onto Star Alliance WB jets? Its called scope.

This might be news to you, but this is exactly what alliances are actually supposed to do by design. How about this for a Hypothesis- What would stop UAL and CAL to relinquish all domestic routes to JB? Nothing and certainly not ALPA scope. Please, look at the evidence of the last 30 years. ALPA did nothing to stabilize the airline industry. Scope was just ALPA’s backdoor to a C scale and was used as a bargaining chip to benefit the top of the seniority list at the legacy carriers.
At the end of the day, it is called Free Market Economy even for ALPA.

The EU desperately wants access to the lucrative US air market. They want cabatoge in the US. They didn't get it this week, but they will be back as a joint committee was set up to revisit the issue.

Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.

Even unionized pilots groups like UAL are having a hard time of it and they are plugged into the Int'l Federation of pilot groups as well as Star Alliance pilot groups.... Why are JB pilots different or exempt?

Well if you want to be scared be scared. By you own admission there is very little the International Federation of Pilots or ALPA can do. In the case of ALPA it should not come as a surprise. ALPA has not credibility domestically why do you believe it would be different internationally.

It is simply mind blowing to think what could happen when you have no scope or representation. It's like leaving your front door unlocked and vacancy sign lit up.... anyone can come in and make themselves at home in your house.

In order to be effective, JB pilots needed a representational structure years ago. It's like trying to put on a seat belt after an accident, thinking it will change what has already occurred.

Rez since you do not work for JB no need for you to blow your mind. Although, I appreciate your analogies but really where was ALPA’s seat belt for the TWA pilots? How about the vacant house in US Airways and America West merger?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Simple because we are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world.

Is this something to be proud of?

Actually, as I stated, in the future, why would cheaper pilots not do you flying? You've no scope protections. I would think that the massive outsourcing of labor in the US would be telling. Do you actually think that investors view pilots differently than from, say Levi jeans labor in the the US?

First, open skies negotiations does not mean the sky is not falling as you and ALPA wants us to believe and second, ALPA has done absolutely nothing nor shown leadership to stabilize the US airline industry (i.e. Regional Airline debacle). In fact, ALPA as an organization is so weak and ineffective in the US on its home turf why would I believe they have more to offer in the international arena?

What does open skies mean? More opportunity for pilots who....

are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world

It has nothing to do with stabilizing the US airline industry... that is the job of govt and CEO's who choose to look beyond profits (Herb K?)

I never really advocated ALPA... just representation... do you want to make this an ALPA debate or a representation/scope debate?

Rez, this make no sense I never claimed German law would be applied in the US nor is this even debated anywhere.

you stated:

That being said, I would not mind working for a Lufthansa subsidiary, which would be the same as working for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Boehringer, Kuehn & Nagel, Deutsche Bank, Bayer, Wuerth, AEG, etc. in the USA.

Where to gain something by working for a LH subsidiary... explain...
​

No need to further debate this here the EU court will take up this issue and rule on this in the future for the EU. ALPA or for this matter no other outside the EU organization will or has any influence in this.
I never said JB pilots would have an advantage I simply stated I would not mind. That is all.

The EU was an example... because of the large number of states within a small area.... however it is the global model.....

Why would you not mind no labor protections and management the ability to move about freely within the gloabl market?

Good for You

It is not about me...rather all of us....

JB will not do much nor is there any need to do much, because what you are proposing is simply not a profitable allocation of assets. We had this discussion before but if you like please provide a city pairs and an aircraft rotation schedule to make this service work

JB simply provides the feed to JFK... LH takes those pax and flies them from JFK to LAX, SFO, SYD, Hong Kong, etc....

This is nothing new it is called a code-share. Do you know how many Delta flight domestically are operated under an international code-share? How about the Delta domestic code share with Midwest Express? While your ALPA brothers at Midwest lost their jobs ALPA biggest carrier is profiting- How about that.

Not good. And this was done with negotiations becuase the Delta pilots had scope to bargian with.....

What do the JB pilots have to bargain with.....??

This might be news to you, but this is exactly what alliances are actually supposed to do by design.

This might be news to yo but the JB pilots are a part of no alliance and no represnetation.

How about this for a Hypothesis- What would stop UAL and CAL to relinquish all domestic routes to JB? Nothing and certainly not ALPA scope.

Explain. They might be able to give regional jets to JB to fly taken from RAH or Expressjet.... but I am not sure JB is in that biz...

Are you suggesting that the JB pilot group is willing to become the new face of the regional airline pilot?

Please, look at the evidence of the last 30 years. ALPA did nothing to stabilize the airline industry.

Not ALPA's job.

Scope was just ALPA’s backdoor to a C scale and was used as a bargaining chip to benefit the top of the seniority list at the legacy carriers.

Agreed... however you use a word for ALPA that you can't for JB pilots: bargaining.

At the end of the day, it is called Free Market Economy even for ALPA.

Agreed.

Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.

Then why does the EU want access?

Well if you want to be scared be scared. By you own admission there is very little the International Federation of Pilots or ALPA can do. In the case of ALPA it should not come as a surprise. ALPA has not credibility domestically why do you believe it would be different internationally.

We aren't talking about ALPA as much as you want this debate to be.... you seem content to be at your investors benevolence.

Rez since you do not work for JB no need for you to blow your mind. Although, I appreciate your analogies but really where was ALPA’s seat belt for the TWA pilots? How about the vacant house in US Airways and America West merger?

You might come out clean in the end.... are you willing to risk a decade of seniorty over no representation?

 

[Dizel8]

Although the LH scenario as Rez. described is a bit farfetched, there are plenty of reasons to worry about scope.

 

[Splert]

Where do the funds originate....

I agree, the funds can't come from the company.

They will have to come from the pilots directly and not indirect or directly from the $2,000,000 mirage that is in our PEA.

 

[Dizel8]

All of us should be worried:

"A British Airways (BAY.L) spokesman expressed disappointment in the slow pace of progress.
"We had hoped that the conclusion of the second stage negotiations would have resulted in the immediate removal of restrictions on ownership and control, Fly America and cabotage," he said. Cabotage is the right to transport of goods or passengers within the borders of another country."

 

[bluesideup340]

Actually, as I stated, in the future, why would cheaper pilots not do you flying? You've no scope protections. I would think that the massive outsourcing of labor in the US would be telling. Do you actually think that investors view pilots differently than from, say Levi jeans labor in the the US?

Yes I do. Levi’s jeans as a US cooperation moved production overseas. On the other hand, foreign ownership does not mean production is moved overseas. Look at direct investments by Toyota, Siemens, etc. These organizations invested in the US to produce and operate in the US, hiring US employees, and comply with US immigration and labor laws.

What does open skies mean? More opportunity for pilots who....

Open sky means free market forces can work as they are supposed too.

It has nothing to do with stabilizing the US airline industry... that is the job of govt and CEO's who choose to look beyond profits (Herb K?)

I never really advocated ALPA... just representation... do you want to make this an ALPA debate or a representation/scope debate?

After deregulation the weak organizational structure and the lack of vision of ALPA, Teamsters, APA, USAPA, etc. representation is done very little to stabilize the careers of the pilots these organizations allegedly represent. I love it when the Union types like you blame everything on management when things go bad but never accept any responsibility for their own actions in the past. Don’t take me wrong Management has to be responsible too but Unions has done not much in the last 30 years for Pilots.

Where to gain something by working for a LH subsidiary... explain...

Working for a financial stable company sound good to me.

JB simply provides the feed to JFK... LH takes those pax and flies them from JFK to LAX, SFO, SYD, Hong Kong, etc....

Please, build a business case and an aircraft rotation plan for your hypothesis.
Sending an Aircraft in PAX service around the globe is uneconomical. Do you remember when TWA and PanAm had these satellite operations in Europe?
TWA and PanAm came inbound from the US to FRA and flow all over Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and India. Do you have any idea what happened?

Then why does the EU want access?

Because of the economy of scale

You might come out clean in the end.... are you willing to risk a decade of seniorty over no representation?

Listen I lost seniority because of ALPA’s fantastic representation. I know you are not here to push ALPA although we all know you are ALPA cheerleader on this board, well whatever floats your boat. In short, representation got me absolutely nothing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes I do. Levi’s jeans as a US cooperation moved production overseas. On the other hand, foreign ownership does not mean production is moved overseas. Look at direct investments by Toyota, Siemens, etc. These organizations invested in the US to produce and operate in the US, hiring US employees, and comply with US immigration and labor laws.

Again.... you can't move a factory very easily.... you can move a jet very easily... meaning with no scope.... management can bring any pilot group in to fly "JB routes and jets". However, it isn't even really owned by the JB pilots because they've created no legal ownership to their work.

Again... the JB pilot door is unlocked with a sign that says Plenty of Vacancy, we're open, free for the taking...

Then there is the other issue of JB pilots simply being "crewmembers" just like FAs, gate agents and rampers. Until you organize, your health and 401k will be fit for a ramper. Maybe its me, but I think a JB pilot who has far greater education, training and responsbility should have a better 401k.

Open sky means free market forces can work as they are supposed too.

Free market forces mean that when you become expensive, if you don't have representation and rights... you get outsourced. You need to explain why this won't happen to JB pilots. Continuity of brand is a valid arguement if LH didn't own 19%.

After deregulation the weak organizational structure and the lack of vision of ALPA, Teamsters, APA, USAPA, etc. representation is done very little to stabilize the careers of the pilots these organizations allegedly represent.

Why do you assume that labor unions in the US should have the power to hold back the free market...??

Labor unions in the EU are having a hard time and they are more labor friendly...

I love it when the Union types like you blame everything on management when things go bad but never accept any responsibility for their own actions in the past.

Negative... ALPA ML pilots giving away scope for pay rates on WB jets was bad form. It is hurting them big time. UAL pilots striking over the the B scale in 85 was a win....

You can't win every fight in politics. Why do pilots expect unions to have an all win/zero loss record?
[QUUOTE]

Don’t take me wrong Management has to be responsible too but Unions has done not much in the last 30 years for Pilots.
[/QUOTE]No, you are a jaded TWA pilot... and you've placed yourself into a bubble of denial and blue juice that your management will "take care" of you.

Working for a financial stable company sound good to me.

That means nothing really..... it certainly doesn't ensure a stable career.....

Tell us why for certain that JB won't be another Morris Air... sold off. JB can be simply used to create a market of routes and customers only to be sold off to LH or another company... Take Reno Air as an example...

The Morris Air pilots were lucky that SWA bought them... the Frontier pilots are seeing what happens when SWA doesn't acquire them.....

Please, build a business case and an aircraft rotation plan for your hypothesis.
Sending an Aircraft in PAX service around the globe is uneconomical. Do you remember when TWA and PanAm had these satellite operations in Europe?
TWA and PanAm came inbound from the US to FRA and flow all over Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and India. Do you have any idea what happened?

I am not a airline planner or industry economist.... however, you example fails because PAA and TWA were stand alone brands not part of a global alliance, such as the Star Alliance.... These alliances are becoming global powerhouses... where does little JB fit into this?

You are starting to show that your understanding of airlines is old 20th Century TWA and JB. Respectfully, JB pilots live in an isolated world in terms of what is going on in the global airline industry. How are JB pilots staying active and informed? What committees are they members of with other pilot groups that are informed and work the issues as part of these gloabl alliances?

Because of the economy of scale

You stated that the US market was not viable... in fact you stated...

Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.

Now its economy of scale?

Listen I lost seniority because of ALPA’s fantastic representation.

I know you are not here to push ALPA although we all know you are ALPA cheerleader on this board, well whatever floats your boat. In short, representation got me absolutely nothing.

no doubt... the question here is.... what is no representation going to get you and your pilots when JB is in play? If your game plan is hoping that the free market will leave JB alone or shine favorable upon yourselves because you are great guys, then good luck.... are you willing to lose seniority all over again?


If I were a JB pilot I'd feel like I was walking around knowing not when a 2x4 was waiting for me across the forehead... but that is just me... There are plenty of pilots there that are quite content....

However, when the pilot group reaches critical mass and consensus dictates representation.... it will be too late..... in order to be effective, representation was needed years ago.... You can't feel the pain of having no scope, quickly 'organize' and expect results.....

With LH owning 19% it might not be a choice your management team has.....

 

[Full of LUV]

Simple because we are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world.


Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.



Well if you want to be scared be scared. By you own admission there is very little the International Federation of Pilots or ALPA can do. In the case of ALPA it should not come as a surprise. ALPA has not credibility domestically why do you believe it would be different internationally.

Blueside,
First as an observer, I believe the yields in Europe have to probably make the American execs shudder. You can often fly across Europe for the price of a 10 block cab ride in NYC, or any European city for that matter. The Europe market has been decimated by Easyjet, Ryan air and a host of cherrypicker airlines that pick a few profitable air routes and fly charter or limited service in Allegiant style.
The old, well paying "legacy" airlines in Europe are stagnant or shrinking and there are no new prospects of growth. The upstarts seem to rule the day. The pilot profession over there has the legacy professionals with a large cadre of vagabond experienced pilots who go from job to job depending on the financial state of their contract agency. On the face of it, they seem like well paying jobs (compared to the us regional pay scales) but skin deep, they are short term with little to no security and living in your base, forget about it.
Bottom line, US is a growth area and if cabotage is allowed, there will be an invasion that makes VA seem like a toy soldier. Does an American company want to fly from England to France, not hardly, does AF want to fly from NY to LA and fill in the wholes with local pax, you betcha.

I don't have a clue how this will play out for JB or any particular airline, but to think that cabotage will be a nonevent for a US pilot is the epitome of niavete.

Lastly, you seem to think that it is ALPA's job to prevent the airlines from going out of business or keep mgt from making poor decisions, or stop the free market. I submit that ALPA's job should be to protect the profession, and keep mgt from forcing labor to pay for their mismanagement. Eastern should have gone out of business if the option was that or work for half wages. Same with TWA, Pan Am, etc. US Air is doing more harm by continuing with their lame contract than would be realized by their extinction.

If I ran ALPA, I would push for min wages to be a "professional" pilot and the Mesa's of the world and any other mutually agreed substandard contract carriers would be forced out of business through limited access to the jumpseat. After all, professional pilots enable pilots working for substandard wages daily to continue to undermine the profession. People will fly, it should be alpa's mission to make sure as many do with professional pilots as possible.
LUV