JetBlue pilot found not guilty by Reason of Insanity byTexas judge

[Andy]

Lack of sleep caused it???

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Tired...n-osbons-march/story?id=16751079#.T_zPQnDTJDI

I'm not so sure you can single out lack of sleep. Didn't someone post quite a while ago that Osbon was regularly working some ludicrous number like 120+ credit hours per month?

I know the overtime whoares (intentionally misspelled to get past the silly censoring software) are going to jump me for this but maybe it's time that the FAA limited the maximum number of credit hours per month/quarter/year.

 

[Lear70]

People get to those numbers by using premium time, which you know.

Much more effective to limit the number of BLOCK house (which they already do), or to mandate more rest between work rotations (40 hours in 7 instead of 30 would force an actual 2 calendar day break, which would help make people take time off).

Personally, if I can drop my regular-pay flying and pick up premium time, work the same number of days as my original line and get paid 100+ hours of credit, that's my business. Days off from work and sleep in a normal circadian rhythm is the key, not limiting income.

 

[Andy]

People get to those numbers by using premium time, which you know.

Much more effective to limit the number of BLOCK house (which they already do), or to mandate more rest between work rotations (40 hours in 7 instead of 30 would force an actual 2 calendar day break, which would help make people take time off).

Personally, if I can drop my regular-pay flying and pick up premium time, work the same number of days as my original line and get paid 100+ hours of credit, that's my business. Days off from work and sleep in a normal circadian rhythm is the key, not limiting income.

It's not only premium time; it's also deadhead time. And I don't consider deadhead time to be restful.

You're trying to justify the exact same practice that Osbon did for many years which resulted in chronic fatigue. Pilots need to be limited in the number of monthly credit hours because there are far too many credit whoeres out there who push themselves to (and beyond) the limits in order to make a couple extra bucks. All's fine and well until they screw the pooch.

Here's a better solution for you. Sure, pick up premium time. But instead of working so much that you get additional credit hours, use premium time to get more time off of work so that you can rest.

Pilots are our own worst enemies; we'll fly until we collapse from exhaustion. All to make a couple extra bucks so we can buy a bigger boat/faster car/bigger house.

 

[Lear70]

It's not only premium time; it's also deadhead time. And I don't consider deadhead time to be restful.

Nor do I.

You're trying to justify the exact same practice that Osbon did for many years which resulted in chronic fatigue.

No, I'm simply making sure people think about their actions before they go off on some tangent. I balance my time off responsibly so I'm not fatigued. I also like premium time and have absolutely ZERO interest in someone trying to tell me how much I can or cannot pick up.

Pilots need to be limited in the number of monthly credit hours because there are far too many credit whoeres out there who push themselves to (and beyond) the limits in order to make a couple extra bucks. All's fine and well until they screw the pooch.

That's what monthly and 7 day limits are for. If you don't think they're enough, go after more.

Here's a better solution for you. Sure, pick up premium time. But instead of working so much that you get additional credit hours, use premium time to get more time off of work so that you can rest.

It's not really your place to tell me what a better solution is or isn't for me. For instance, last month I lost my I.D on a camping trip (don't know how, it was in the truck, have NEVER lost one before, but it happened). I missed a trip that got deducted from my credit and lost almost $1,500 in my pocket as a result. That hurt, but gave me a bunch of days off. This month my credit is about 87 hours with 18 days off as a result of interface. If I dropped a trip and picked one up over the 4th at premium, I could easily top 110 credit hours and have the same number of days off and get some of the money I lost back. But if you limited my ability to do that with some artificial "credit cap", you screw me. I'm not interested in that.

Pilots are our own worst enemies; we'll fly until we collapse from exhaustion. All to make a couple extra bucks so we can buy a bigger boat/faster car/bigger house.

No, stupid pilots fly until they collapse from exhaustion. You can't fix stupid, nor are you going to help by artificially capping those of us who find premium time responsibly.

If you want to address fatigue, as I mentioned before, then limit a MINIMUM number of days off per month and/or increase the minimum time off per 7 consecutive days to force 2 days of in between trips somewhere in a 7 day period as well as completely eliminating the allowance of the flipping of circadian rhythm.

Fatigue is about time off and circadian rhythm, not money. If I can responsibly chase some extra coin, that's my business. Not anyone else's, the FAA included.

 

[redflyer65]

I tend to agree with Lear on this one. There are alot of guys out there that pickup foolishly. If your wise in your pickups, you can make extra AND be rested.

It would be interesting to see the past few months of Osbon's schedule. If he was fatigued from what he was doing, then he wasn't being very smart. I have no facts, so I really don't know.

 

[Andy]

That's what monthly and 7 day limits are for. If you don't think they're enough, go after more.

It's not me that you need concern yourself with. It's the FAA and whatever rule changes are coming.

It's not really your place to tell me what a better solution is or isn't for me. For instance, last month I lost my I.D on a camping trip (don't know how, it was in the truck, have NEVER lost one before, but it happened). I missed a trip that got deducted from my credit and lost almost $1,500 in my pocket as a result. That hurt, but gave me a bunch of days off. This month my credit is about 87 hours with 18 days off as a result of interface. If I dropped a trip and picked one up over the 4th at premium, I could easily top 110 credit hours and have the same number of days off and get some of the money I lost back. But if you limited my ability to do that with some artificial "credit cap", you screw me. I'm not interested in that.

Correct; it's not my place. It's the FAA's place.
You can tell us how safe you are with picking up extra hours and trips. But it's very likely that you are reducing your margin of safety. And that's squarely in the FAA's purview.

If I can responsibly chase some extra coin, that's my business. Not anyone else's, the FAA included.

The FAA disagrees with you.


This isn't the first 'aircrew wigs out due to fatigue' incident. It's starting to occur on a regular basis.

 

[waveflyer]

But, don't worry about this. Just go back to arguing about scope and seniority and who's screwing whom.

or age 65


Godspeed to this pilot.
What we all must prepare for emotionally and financially is that at any moment we can medical out. That's a cold reality. Don't hang on so tight and realize life is well worth living without flying.

Ditto on Lear's words about sleep- is very important to our health

 

[Lear70]

Correct; it's not my place. It's the FAA's place.

Rules that "sound good" but make no sense in practice have a funny way of becoming policy. That's my point: don't go suggesting something that is detrimental to people in the name of "safety" that doesn't actually improve safety.

You can tell us how safe you are with picking up extra hours and trips. But it's very likely that you are reducing your margin of safety. And that's squarely in the FAA's purview.

No, it's not likely. It is, in fact, quite patently untrue and, again, it's not your place to disagree with whether I am fatigued or not.

When I tell you that I have the same number of days off per month with my method (and other, responsible pilots) of getting rid of regular pay trips and finding premium pay trips on different days, resulting in at least 2 days off at home in between each trip (usually 3-4) and 17-19 days off a month, then I'm sorry, your assertion of it "likely reducing my margin of safety" is simply incorrect.

Are premium time wh*res who take themselves down to 30/7 every week unsafe? Probably, but you're not going to find anyone here who agrees with your claim of "reduced margin of safety" based on a method that keeps a pilot having 14-15 days off or more a month with at least 2 days or more off in between trips and no flipping days/nights of flying.

The FAA disagrees with you.

Only insofar as the regs they create for a minimum level of safety which, again, has no basis in money. Again, every single safety study points to three things in the fatigue chain: Time at work, time off, and circadian rhythm. If you're spending the same amount of time at work that your regular line would fly and not flipping your circadian rhythm but getting paid more, it's just not a safety issue.

Working the same or less for more money has been safe since the dawn of aviation.

 

[Andy]

Lear, you're taking this way too personal. As for your assertion that reducing maximum credit hours would not increase safety, I vehemently disagree. I see way too many pilots who push themselves to the limit in order to get additional credit hours. And I don't buy your assertions that you're well rested while getting >110 credit hours/month.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, you're taking this way too personal.

Well, you've made it personal. You are directly asserting that I am deliberately reducing my level of safety by the trips I trade for. I don't know too many people who wouldn't take that personally, and you did it again:

And I don't buy your assertions that you're well rested while getting >110 credit hours/month.

If you're going to make it personal, I'm going to answer it personally. Not calling you any names, just simply asserting that you are wrong. Plain and simple.

Here's a sample of the trips I fly:

Day 1 - MCO-BWI-SJU 5:30 block 17 hr overnight
Day 2 - SJU-BWI-SJU 7:00 block 17 hr overnight
Day 3 - SJU-BWI-MCO 5:30 block 16 hrs off in base
Day 4 - MCO-AUA-MCO 6:00 block day trip

4 days flying, 24 hours of block (same as credit for this trip), 3 days off, repeat 3 times in one month = 72 hours

One 3-day unproductive trip at 15 hours of block = 87 total hours of block/credit with 16 days off for July as my original line (this is abnormal for our decreased line values right now, I had a carry-in trip that gave me this extra 3-day unproductive trip and could use it to make bank).

Drop that unproductive 3-day and pick up a 4-day over the 4th of July at premium time for 42 hours of credit on 28 hours of block brings me to 114 hours of credit and still with 15 days off for the month.

Explain to me how that is fatiguing? No less than 16 hour overnights, no more than 11 hours on duty each day, all day flying (no circadian flipping), 3 days at home every week, half the month off.

As for your assertion that reducing maximum credit hours would not increase safety, I vehemently disagree. I see way too many pilots who push themselves to the limit in order to get additional credit hours.

See above.

You're just wrong. Do some pilots push it too far? Sure. Can it be done at those credit hours safely and with lots of time at home? Absolutely.

It falls to the person to be responsible. If you don't believe they can, then specify a MINIMUM number of days off per month they MUST take and a MINIMUM number of days off in between trips to make them take time off. Don't go after the money, you're screwing those of us who do it responsibly.

 

[Andy]

.Explain to me how that is fatiguing? No less than 16 hour overnights, no more than 11 hours on duty each day, all day flying (no circadian flipping), 3 days at home every week, half the month off.

First, that's nowhere near the 110+ credit hours you previously referenced that you're willing to fly.
Second, you haven't mentioned your commute from TN.

Clayton Osbon could have made the exact same arguments all the way up to his last flight.

You're not the first one who has engaged me in this discussion. You are a pilot. You're supposed to be professional. You can claim that you're never fatigued but you're now pulling the old bait and switch on me - talk about 110+ in credit being safe and then toss out a schedule with 72 hours' credit. Add in the other 38+ hours' credit plus your commute time.

 

[Lear70]

First, that's nowhere near the 110+ credit hours you previously referenced that you're willing to fly.

Go back and re-read my post.

Slowly.

You will see that I'm talking 114 credit hours. I'll say it again for reading comprehension... 114... Credit... hours.

Second, you haven't mentioned your commute from TN.

What about it? I commute. I fly a.m.'s so I commute in the day before my trip around noon, drive over to my Dad's house in base, have a nice dinner, get 7 hours' sleep, then fly my trip rested as is my responsibility as a professional airline pilot. On the last day of my trips, which finish around 4 or 5 p.m., I catch the 5:50 flight home, land around 7, home at 7:30 in time for dinner on my last day.

Questions?

Clayton Osbon could have made the exact same arguments all the way up to his last flight.

Maybe. Do you have his flight schedule for the last several months?

You're not the first one who has engaged me in this discussion. You are a pilot. You're supposed to be professional. You can claim that you're never fatigued but you're now pulling the old bait and switch on me - talk about 110+ in credit being safe and then toss out a schedule with 72 hours' credit. Add in the other 38+ hours' credit plus your commute time.

I never said I have never been fatigued... I certainly HAVE been before during IROPS and back-side-of-the-clock flying, which is why I don't bid it. What I *DID* say was that I don't create fatiguing trip trades for myself chasing the money.

Again, just to be clear, for July:

Three 4-day trips (a 3-day backed up to a day trip) at 24 hours CREDIT each = 72 hours CREDIT.
Dropped a 3-day that paid crap.
Picked up one 4-day trip at premium time for 28 hours of block at time and a half, 42 hours of CREDIT (the only premium time I have seen for months, it hasn't been readily available for us much lately, just happened to work out).

72 + 42 is... wait for it... 114 hours of CREDIT, 97 BLOCK hours of flying... would have been right at 100 hrs of credit but the premium time bumped it up.

With 15 days off for the month.

Any questions?

Note: this is not my normal thing. I prefer to block around 80 hours of block time, 83-85 hours of credit, with 17-18 days off. However, losing that chunk of pay last month hurt... and I had an opportunity to make it up and not be fatigued by doing so. Yes it put my schedule right up to the edge of FAR legality, but plenty rested and perfectly legal with plenty of time at home with my family.

It CAN be done responsibly. Whether you choose to believe it or not. If you were an airline pilot, you'd understand the difference between taking yourself down to 8-9 days off chasing money or trading a trip here and there strategically for extra money with similar time off as your originally-awarded line.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Andy's argument supports the replacement of pilots with UAV's more than it does improving safety with reduced credit.

 

[Andy]

Andy's argument supports the replacement of pilots with UAV's more than it does improving safety with reduced credit.

Thanks; I see you're currently riding onboard Ozzy Osbourne's crazy train. ... your (lack of) logic in making such a statement is humorous.

As for Lear's optimal schedule, that's only available to the ubersenior. The other 95% need not apply.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Andy seems to think that a few isolated instances prove that pilots need to be protected from themselves. A UAV could be programmed without such back-sass.

The true irony in such a view is that pilots are paid for the responsibility they appear (in his universe) ill-equipped to handle. So cut off the credit, redistribute the wealth, level the playing field and all will be safe.

 

[waveflyer]

Andy,
How is credit related?
If I fly 80 block at 100tfp or 80 block at 130tfp= it all equals the same block.
Some of my most fatiguing lines have been the least productive.
And I missed the evidence that Osbon's break is fatigue related?
I'd imagine that we'd have commuter pilots goin nuts every couple of weaks if fatigue was more than an ancillary factor. And ER doctors and law school students doing the same.