Jetblue Pic time ?

[buttercup]

Does anyone know if PIC time accrued as an instructor in little Cessna and Piper tin cans can be counted towards JB 1000 requirement. It says that JB considers PIC time as signing for the aircraft, so this area is a little grey.. Thanks!!

 

[SDCFI]

Follow-up

Along the same lines, how about dual received after the pvt cert (inst, comm, multi, etc.)? You and the instructor are logging PIC. Since under 91 no one "signs" for the aircraft how do they handle that? Or multi time building where one person wears the hood so you can both log PIC.

 

[airbaker]

Or multi time building where one person wears the hood so you can both log PIC.

This is probably going to sound a little arrogant, and I really don't mean for anyone to take offense.... but if you're piecing together this kind of flight time, you are no where near the ballpark to get pulled from the computer. I'd venture to say that many folks who have been called, have understated their flight times on the computer, and probably didn't claim any flight time that was questionable.

Again, not trying to flame, just giving my humble 2 cents.

 

[CODs4ever]

PIC time means that you were the one directly responsible for the safety of the flight. Thus, if you were an instructor in a C-152 or whatever, that's PIC time. However, logging PIC time when you are a private pilot and your CFII or MEI is giving you instruction, really is not PIC. You may have been the "pilot at the controls" (Part 91) but you were not directly responsible for the conduct & safety of the flight, and that will be a tough one to explain at an interview, let alone anywhere else.

Besides all that, as airbaker stated, if you are using C-152 instructor time to put you over the 1000 hour PIC minimum, it counts, but it may not be very competitive. However, anything is worth a shot. The worst that can happen is that you don't get called for an interview.

 

[GogglesPisano]

What are competetive times right now?

 

[CODs4ever]

I only know three guys hired by JB. All three were Navy with between 2500-3000 total, mostly P-3C and C-12 (King Air 200) time, but each had well over 1500 PIC multi-engine turbine and a fair amount of heavy (P-3C 100,000+ lbs) flight time. I think JB likes any flight time in aircraft heavier than 20,000 lbs.

 

[Whitestoneclimb]

I was told by a buddy of mine who works there that I have essentially "zero chance" of getting called since I have no 'jet' time and no 'glass cockpit' experience. I have 7000 hours in a Dash 8 with half of it PIC. I thought that would count for something. Go figure. They always seem to want something more. First they want turbine time. Then they want turbine PIC. Then they want turbine PIC in a heavier airplane. Then they want turbine PIC time in a jet. Then they want jet PIC time in glass cockpit aircraft. Everyone says its easier to fly a jet and easier to fly with glass as compared to steam guages. Whats up with that........Sorry, I guess I'm ranting. I'll stop now.

 

[B190Captain]

I was told by a buddy of mine who works there that I have essentially "zero chance" of getting called since I have no 'jet' time and no 'glass cockpit' experience. I have 7000 hours in a Dash 8 with half of it PIC. I thought that would count for something. Go figure. They always seem to want something more. First they want turbine time. Then they want turbine PIC. Then they want turbine PIC in a heavier airplane. Then they want turbine PIC time in a jet. Then they want jet PIC time in glass cockpit aircraft. Everyone says its easier to fly a jet and easier to fly with glass as compared to steam guages. Whats up with that........Sorry, I guess I'm ranting. I'll stop now.

I agree but what can you do? You need experience in monitoring an aircraft that flies by itself.

 

[jetblue320]

I was told by a buddy of mine who works there that I have essentially "zero chance" of getting called since I have no 'jet' time and no 'glass cockpit' experience. I have 7000 hours in a Dash 8 with half of it PIC. I thought that would count for something. Go figure. They always seem to want something more. First they want turbine time. Then they want turbine PIC. Then they want turbine PIC in a heavier airplane. Then they want turbine PIC time in a jet. Then they want jet PIC time in glass cockpit aircraft. Everyone says its easier to fly a jet and easier to fly with glass as compared to steam guages. Whats up with that........Sorry, I guess I'm ranting. I'll stop now.

To set the record straight, we have only changed our requirements (minimums) one time and to some, the minimums were actually relaxed. I know this may seem a harsh statement but it is all about supply and demand. Three years ago, 7000 hours in a Dash 8 would have been enough. Today, 7000 hours of B757 (or similar) PIC is about standard. It's all in the timng.

Good luck

 

[jetblue320]

I agree but what can you do? You need experience in monitoring an aircraft that flies by itself.

One of the first experience qualities would be maturity.

 

[Falconjet]

320

You forgot arrogant and condescending!

 

[B190Captain]

Oh please. You tellin me that an airbus is not fully automated? Airbus designers have a goal in mind. To remove the pilot out of the equation.

On another note JB's 20K requirement is ridiculous. I have more than one friend that the largest plane they flew before they got into a 747, DC-10, 757/767 and so on was a 1900 (pre and post 9/11).

"You forgot arrogant and condescending!"

Those are the other 2 experience qualities?

No need for name calling kiddies.

 

[Whitestoneclimb]

Originally posted by Whitestoneclimb
I was told by a buddy of mine who works there that I have essentially "zero chance" of getting called since I have no 'jet' time and no 'glass cockpit' experience. I have 7000 hours in a Dash 8 with half of it PIC. I thought that would count for something. Go figure. They always seem to want something more. First they want turbine time. Then they want turbine PIC. Then they want turbine PIC in a heavier airplane. Then they want turbine PIC time in a jet. Then they want jet PIC time in glass cockpit aircraft. Everyone says its easier to fly a jet and easier to fly with glass as compared to steam guages. Whats up with that........Sorry, I guess I'm ranting. I'll stop now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



To set the record straight, we have only changed our requirements (minimums) one time and to some, the minimums were actually relaxed. I know this may seem a harsh statement but it is all about supply and demand. Three years ago, 7000 hours in a Dash 8 would have been enough. Today, 7000 hours of B757 (or similar) PIC is about standard. It's all in the timng.

Good luck



I wasn't trying to sound condecending nor was I blowing my horn. It was just a general statement regarding hiring practices, not necessarily those at JetBlue. And yes, you are right. Its all in the timing.

 

[Falconjet]

B190/Whitestone

My comments were directed at the response that Whitestone got from JetBlue320, not to Whitestone. I should have stayed out of it but sometimes I get tired of the JB folks defending their standing in the industry when nobody has questioned it. My bad.

FJ

 

[CODs4ever]

All three guys I know that got hired had zero jet time, and zero glass cockpit time. But they were Navy. Dave Barger's (President, Chief Operating Officer and Director) brother is a former Navy F/A-18 pilot and I think he heads up the training department (not sure though).

So it seems like there is some amount of preference given to military guys, even if they have no jet or glass time. But at the same time, I know of several military pilots who I would have thought would be ideal candidates, but they did not get called.

 

[GogglesPisano]

All three guys I know that got hired had zero jet time, and zero glass cockpit time. But they were Navy. Dave Barger's (President, Chief Operating Officer and Director) brother is a former Navy F/A-18 pilot and I think he heads up the training department (not sure though).

So it seems like there is some amount of preference given to military guys, even if they have no jet or glass time. But at the same time, I know of several military pilots who I would have thought would be ideal candidates, but they did not get called.

In other words, now they're becoming like every other major airline.

 

[CODs4ever]

Yes, but I think that JB still tries to keep an even spread for hiring among military, part-121, and corporate pilots. Where as other airlines in the past have leaned very far towards hiring miltary above any others. It just works out that your typical mil pilot making his/her transition to the civilian world in their mid-30's will most likely only have between 2500-3500 hours.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I agree but what can you do? You need experience in monitoring an aircraft that flies by itself.

It's funny how people that have never flown an A320 make these statements all the time. I went from a captain on a relatively fast turboprop to right seat on the 737. Training was no big deal but the 73 ate my lunch a few times the first 6 months I flew it because of the speed, descent planning, and overall complexity. It's a big step from a 1900 to an A320 or 737. It's not to say you wouldn't do just fine in training or flying the airplane but don't underestimate the transition. When an airline has the opportunity to hire a guy or gal with experience in faster more complex airplanes they are going to do it especially when upgrade time is less than two years. It's frustrating as hell when you know you can do a job if you are given the opportunity, I've been there! Hang in there and I hope you find something soon.

 

[B6Busdriver]

To set the record straight, we have only changed our requirements (minimums) one time and to some, the minimums were actually relaxed. I know this may seem a harsh statement but it is all about supply and demand. Three years ago, 7000 hours in a Dash 8 would have been enough. Today, 7000 hours of B757 (or similar) PIC is about standard. It's all in the timng.

Good luck

Saying that 7000 hours of PIC in a 757 or equivalent is a bit of an overstatement IMHO.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: B190/Whitestone

My comments were directed at the response that Whitestone got from JetBlue320, not to Whitestone. I should have stayed out of it but sometimes I get tired of the JB folks defending their standing in the industry when nobody has questioned it. My bad.

FJ

Oh I get it now. LOL!! Sry for the misunderstanding.

 

[AlbieF15]

I think the fact JetBlue was the only game in town hiring and expanding in a tough shrinking market allowed A) hiring to be pretty selective and B) JB guys to be targets of a bit of resentment as other folks airlines were hurting.

If SWA really does hire 300-400 this year, and AirTran does the same thing...along with America West, ATA, and perhaps FDX reopening the window for a few folks...I think you will see a slight (notice I said slight) downward pressure on qual requirements. Plato Rhyne II at DAL used to say his favorite candidate was a former military guy with 121 experience. JetBlue has always tried to give a cross section of applicants an opportunity, however, and prides itself of its mix of flying backgrounds.

PIC issues and high time requirements made sense as the airline was expanding rapidly and guys/gals would be Captains in 6 months to a year. Another not so good factor for Jetblue hopefuls is the PIC or other requirements MIGHT soften down the road, but that likely means its due to a longer wait until your Captain's upgrade. I know the folks I've helped get ready for interviews all have had significant leadership time...in the military, corporate world, or at another airline. Jetblue doesn't seem to want to "groom" or produce captains, it wants to HIRE them and put them in the right seat a while until they can upgrade. (Former USAir guys with 6000 + hours are the exception here) Most airlines SAY the same thing, but if you look historically at some hiring (during the good old days of the late 90s) you can see that there were some pretty low time guys hired at the majors. I'd say those days will be gone until a major upturn in hiring cycle.

Another factor here (and I'm not bashing anyone) is that the attractions of working for JetBlue when I got offered a position were:
A- Rapid upgrade & awesome seniority
B- Early entry into stock options
C- Great company leadership and highly motivated workforce

As time goes by, and more and more folks are hired, the upgrade and seniority possibilities, while still much better than most places, do diminish somewhat. The upgrade times at JB are no longer 1 year, and although I don't know the exact times I'm sure ATA and AirTran upgrades are getting close to about the same time. As Airtran takes its new 737 fleet and expands, a nice jump in seniority for guys hired in the last year will also occur. We've all seen the hit JBLU took this month...and while it may or may not rebound back into the stratosphere, the initial hires and first 300 or so folks there have done VERY well. For subsequent hires..well...I don't know...but like at SWA the difference of a year or two can mean a million dollars or more to a retirement portfolio based on stock options.

And that leaves C--a great company with good folks at the helm and in the trenches. I don't think JB ever thought they'd be without competition forever, and I'm sure their high level of customer service will keep them successful for a long time. However, this last month has shown they aren't "magic", and that coupled with other airlines hiring will likely mean JetBlue will have to compete for the most qualified candidates with other carriers. Just as ticket prices go down in a competitive market, I'll bet some of the quals might eventually be loosened just a bit.

As always...I'm just a fighter pilot (and panel b!tch) and I may be wrong...

And as for board posts, momma always said "please" and "thank you" go a long way. Play nice everyone...

 

[kevdog]

Whitestoneclimb and 1900,

whining pilots are about as much fun as women with bad cramps during their period. with both of your flight times, you should know better! maybe your attitudes helped you get to where you are now.

as far as airbus wanting to take the pilot out of the plane with automation...keep flying your turboprops, no worries there - does your 1900 even have autopilot?

keep 'em smiling!

 

[airbaker]

upgrade times

Just want to add to a comment that Albie brought up regarding the upgrade times slowing down a bit. They have definately slowed down a little ...like from 6-8 months during jetBlue's start, to 16-20 months of current new-hires (at least that's what they've told us newbies). Still a pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** fast upgrade into a complex turbojet. And as the 190's come on board in late summer of 05', the upgrade times might drop a little again.

The ball is definately in jetBlue's court; but can you really blame them?


Here's to hoping that the stock price drops a little more....at least until my class date in Jan!

 

[airbaker]

geez....what's with the overly sensitive censoring! All I said was that it's a pretty "dam" fast upgrade.

 

[Ty Webb]

Albie-

Very observant and well-written post!

 

[skirt]

Another factor here (and I'm not bashing anyone) is that the attractions of working for JetBlue when I got offered a position were:
A- Rapid upgrade & awesome seniority
B- Early entry into stock options
C- Great company leadership and highly motivated workforce



As always...I'm just a fighter pilot (and panel b!tch) and I may be wrong...

Albie,

We all know you're never wrong! You continue to have the best gouge out there. As for your list of jetblue attractions, I would reemphasize #C above and beyond #A and #B.

Having personally seen the up's and down's of airline stock (gee at one time I had $400,000 of unexerciseable UAL ESOP stock....that dropped to $2,000), a pilot is wise to not bank on stock, or stock options for that matter. However, with good leadership, stock options do mean something. Looking longterm stock options are much better than ESOP stock, still not worth as much as a good work environment created by good leadership. Don't forget profit sharing.

Upgrade time is indeed lengthening at JetBlue. As a recent new-hire I can expect two years to A320 captain or under 18 months as EMB-190 captain, still much quicker than most anywhere else.

Without a doubt, the main reason a pilot would like working at JetBlue is the environment, co-workers and leadership. JetBlue isn't perfect, but the nice thing is that everyone is pulling on the same end of the rope to make it as perfect as possible, and THAT is what makes life good here.

Skirt