JetBlue in full meltdown mode

[waveflyer]

How did you make that leap? Everybody reacts differently and copes differently.

That last line is the problem

Everybody reacts and copes differently?- I disagree. Yes, some are better at getting to sleep. Some are more disciplined in shutting off the tv and internet, getting out of the bar, staying away from caffeine after their half day point-using their physiological tricks to induce good rest-. But there must be that opportunity to rest. And that's what the regs are addressing. I went YEARS sleeping 4 hours a night- and really screwed my system up- took 18months to get right.

Fatigue is fatigue and you're showing a common ignorance among pilots, who- like doctors- culturally press their fatigue to the limits.

It is good that we are changing that culture.

 

[waveflyer]

Please read the final rule making and google the science behind 117 gut.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/2120-AJ58-FinalRule.pdf

It begins with a "simple" statement for you:

"The Rule recognizes the universality of factors that lead to fatigue in most individuals..."

 

[gutshotdraw]

It might be an improvement in the Scheduled Domestic 121 world you live in. I'll take your word for it since that isn't my world.

By the same token, just as soon as Southwest starts flying to Singapore, and Beijing, and Capetown, I'll start taking your advice on how effective 117 will be for mitigating fatigue at our operation. It would be a disaster in the 91K/135 world.

 

[waveflyer]

Fair enough/ all I can say is to emphasize the "universality of factors that contribute to fatigue" and that many of your peers disagree.

 

[EWR_FO]

It might be an improvement in the Scheduled Domestic 121 world you live in. I'll take your word for it since that isn't my world.

By the same token, just as soon as Southwest starts flying to Singapore, and Beijing, and Capetown, I'll start taking your advice on how effective 117 will be for mitigating fatigue at our operation. It would be a disaster in the 91K/135 world.

I do India and Asia every month from NY and I think it's a big improvement.

 

[tico]

I think it is important to remember that FAR 117 is not a "quality of life" regulation, rather it is a "safety of flight" regulation. It will be up to individual pilot groups to negotiate "quality of life" back into to their respective CBA's. Hopefully "high
block" flying will go away and airlines will begin to staff appropriately. I would take a guess that any airlines whose staffing model requires "high block" flying will have interesting times ahead

 

[waveflyer]

I don't know that block times are any more limited - with 30-7 going away - I might fly a lot more-
It's the timing of those flights that more the deal- but I agree-
It is about actual fatigue- not other games

 

[igneousy2]

No, you wont see the high schedule days, NOR pay. What you will have is a company who can without your approval, extend you two hours, if you decline, at least in our contract, pay is lost. Unless you claim fatigue, then your screwed into a no pay overnight and DH back.

After watching the ramifications this last week, I have complete faith the companies were all in cahoots with the FAA to get them to be able, at no negotiating cost under the guise of a new law, to keep our asses in the seat for many more hours with much less pay.

No, they cannot extend your day without at least the Captains going along with it. Second, where under the old, the company could schedule you til 15 anytime they wanted, now they can never schedule you to 15...and in fact if it's during periods where you are naturally more tired, it can be as low as 9 hours. 9 extendable to 11 is a huge improvement over 15 extendable to 16.

Once you are extended you cannot extend again until you get 30 hours off. Which again is a huge improvement over...we owe you two hours extra in the hotel. This Practically means that you can only be extended once during a pairing.

You are also mixing up contract issues with Part 117. If you are not pay protected because you get removed from a flight because of legality issues you are pointing the finger at the wrong culprit. An extra day for me means 5 more hours of credit at a minimum. If it runs into something I already had on my schedule...I still at least get paid for that. On the extra day, all they can do is get me back to base ASAP (to include off-line flights) or I can agree to do something else...which puts the ENTIRE pairing at 150% pay.

This actually seems a lot less complicated to me. What time did you start, how many legs, that is your FDP limit. What is so hard and complicated about that? Seems a lot better than how many block hours in the last 24? What time did my reduced rest time start? When is 24 hours after my last rest time? How much CREDIT rest do I need? So 10 hours in the hotel makes up for having to be on duty for 16 hours from 2200-1400?

Never mind the fact that they could schedule you right up to 16 hours...and then for a long time the airlines insisted that if you were delayed beyond that you could be on duty INDEFINETLY. The only thing stopping them from holding that position in recent years is some lawyer at the FAA named Whitlow who I don't believe even works there anymore. That seems a little too tenuous for me.

As far as tracking hours goes, most of it is because nobody really paid attention to FDP until now. It's no more or less complicated to track FDP then Block time. Once I.T. catches up, it won't be a big deal.

While 117 is not by any means perfect, at least compared to 121-Domestic rules that I have been living under for the past 15+ years, it represents a HUGE improvement.

 

[Turtle21]

No, you wont see the high schedule days, NOR pay. What you will have is a company who can without your approval, extend you two hours, if you decline, at least in our contract, pay is lost. Unless you claim fatigue, then your screwed into a no pay overnight and DH back.

After watching the ramifications this last week, I have complete faith the companies were all in cahoots with the FAA to get them to be able, at no negotiating cost under the guise of a new law, to keep our asses in the seat for many more hours with much less pay.

Word.. Work more days.

 

[waveflyer]

That hasn't been the case for me

The contract has kicked in and I've gotten paid more-
I agree with igneousy