Jetblue and RJs
- Thread starter 9rj9
- Start date
Jeff G
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 184
- Total Time
- 5000+
Ahem. 9rj9?
Bite me.
You're wondering why mainline doesn't like you? We take mainline flying the old fashioned way: we compete for it and take your market share. You codeshare for it and take your own market share. That's the difference.
And in case you still don't get it, major airline pilots are not your brothers, and never will be. Go ahead and try to set industry-wide union scale. You'll never get 50+ locals to agree to it, much less 50+ companies. You'll never even get your own mainline to agree to it. You're better off settling in for a nice long sit in your 50-seater, so if I were you, I'd concentrate on your next contract rather than worry about non-ALPA carriers flying equipment three times your size. We'll take care of ourselves and don't want your help.
swa and 299
Looks like someone didn't like what I originally said. Anywho, how can SWA offer 299 walk up fares ? How can Delta compete with that. You don't think the substandard pay has SOMETHING to do with it.
My problem is the regional pilots are be blamed for everything thats wrong with the industry. You want me to quit ? There are 1000's that are willing to take my place. You want me to let mainline guys fly beside me making 5x the money? No thanks.
Looks like someone didn't like what I originally said. Anywho, how can SWA offer 299 walk up fares ? How can Delta compete with that. You don't think the substandard pay has SOMETHING to do with it.
My problem is the regional pilots are be blamed for everything thats wrong with the industry. You want me to quit ? There are 1000's that are willing to take my place. You want me to let mainline guys fly beside me making 5x the money? No thanks.
Jeff G
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 184
- Total Time
- 5000+
More likely someone didn't like how you said it. FWIW, I had nothing to do with that.
Delta and SWA (/JBLU) have fundamentally different business models. Delta has a huge network reaching from small fields to major international cities. SWA is highly optimized for domestic point to point routes. Salaries are a part of SWA's advantage, but the difference isn't that much, just a percentage of a percentage of operating costs. The main advantages are productivity and brutal focus on a narrowly defined mission. Delta pilots could fly for free and not cut costs low enough to compete on the same level. Conversely, raising SWA pay to Delta levels would only lower profits at those carriers, not improve your product or your internal infighting, so to suggest that low rates at SWA are the source of all your ills is just smoke. It's nothing more than setting up a straw man to deflect attention from where it needs to be: getting your own house in order.
Who could blame you? Hey, I flew for one of the US Airways wholly-owneds, and I know exactly how you feel. There's nothing positive about the current situation. There's little leadership at a national level on this issue, and the MEC's run their own shows as they see fit. There's precious little unity within the union.
I'll reiterate that the only long term solution from the pilots' standpoint is one list. No low-end codesharing of any kind (i.e. no "regional" flying other than by wholly-owned subsidiaries). Any other solution is guaranteed to cause friction. For that reason, it's unlikely you'll ever get it. Your mainline "brethren" would have to decide that it's in their own best interests to end the whipsawing rather than ensure their squadron buddies get hired into a "real" airplane. They'd also have to admit that your pilots are indeed "worthy" to serve as "true" Delta pilots. And your own MEC would have to take the risk that in down times, your "own" pilots may be put on the street to make room for furloughed mainline pilots. See? It's all but impossible. But one way or other, this parallel operation of airlines on the same property will have to end.
Wishing away SWA and JBLU or vilifying their pilots won't help with any of that. (For instance, how will raising pilot pay at SWA and JBLU bring YOUR passengers back or get DALPA off your back). But I'm sure any number of people would love to hear other suggestions.
BigFlyr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 359
- Total Time
- 10700+
AH-HAAA!!! I knew there was more to the low cost carriers success stories! Most people don't realize that a big part of the low cost carriers advantage lies in their effiecient cost structure by operating fleets of same aircraft type and fying niche markets rather than just matching other carriers at a loss to gain market share. Lower than "standard" pilot pay may play a small part in their success but then what is "standard"?
uwochris
Flightinfo's sexiest user
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 381
- Total Time
- 2500+
the SWA model
Why can SWA charge $299 for tickets, and other airlines cannot?
Well, we studied this in my airline economics class. It was referred to as the Southwest model. They essentially try to operate an airline with minimal operating costs, in order to maximize profits.
Some points include:
- not flying into major airports, where the fees are higher.
- operate a uniform fleet to achieve economies/savings in crew training, inventories, and maintenance.
- no frills... no big meals on flights, no first class, very friendly and pleasant crew, etc.
- no overseas flying
There are many other reasons which I just can't seem to think of at the top of my head. Now I am not a professional airline analyst, but our professor constantly stressed the advantage that SWA had over any other airline- its low costs. I'm sure their costs are a fraction of what Delta's, for instance, would be. Two completely different operating motifs.
Why can SWA charge $299 for tickets, and other airlines cannot?
Well, we studied this in my airline economics class. It was referred to as the Southwest model. They essentially try to operate an airline with minimal operating costs, in order to maximize profits.
Some points include:
- not flying into major airports, where the fees are higher.
- operate a uniform fleet to achieve economies/savings in crew training, inventories, and maintenance.
- no frills... no big meals on flights, no first class, very friendly and pleasant crew, etc.
- no overseas flying
There are many other reasons which I just can't seem to think of at the top of my head. Now I am not a professional airline analyst, but our professor constantly stressed the advantage that SWA had over any other airline- its low costs. I'm sure their costs are a fraction of what Delta's, for instance, would be. Two completely different operating motifs.
Gentlemen,
Where is it written that airline pilots are supposed to be paid large wages for working 12 days a month ??
The days of the country club airline career are over.
My compliments to Southwest Airlines for showing the Big guys ( AA, Delta, United) how to run a profitable business year after year.
Where is it written that airline pilots are supposed to be paid large wages for working 12 days a month ??
The days of the country club airline career are over.
My compliments to Southwest Airlines for showing the Big guys ( AA, Delta, United) how to run a profitable business year after year.
furloboy,
Latest news ... Delta is 2.4 billion underfunded in its Pension Fund.
Does this give you a warm and fuzzy feeling furloboy !!!!
Goodluck. All comments are meant to be good natured however the truth hurts sometimes.
Umm ... If the company doesn't make any money what good is the contract ?
Latest news ... Delta is 2.4 billion underfunded in its Pension Fund.
Does this give you a warm and fuzzy feeling furloboy !!!!
Goodluck. All comments are meant to be good natured however the truth hurts sometimes.
furloboy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2002
- Posts
- 79
- Total Time
- 4800+
rjcap,
You asked and I gave you the answer.
Warm and fuzzy? Sure, I've got a warm and fuzzy--a Delta seniority number that you'd love to have.
I am familiar with the latest news about the pension fund. It's in decent shape.
Right back at you:
"Goodluck. All comments are meant to be good natured however the truth hurts sometimes."
You asked and I gave you the answer.
Warm and fuzzy? Sure, I've got a warm and fuzzy--a Delta seniority number that you'd love to have.
I am familiar with the latest news about the pension fund. It's in decent shape.
Right back at you:
"Goodluck. All comments are meant to be good natured however the truth hurts sometimes."
Capn Lucky
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2002
- Posts
- 220
- Total Time
- 4000+
SWA no longer uses the plastic cards for seating.
FYI
FYI
I think the 20 minute turns are pretty much gone, too. More "sits" as I have heard.
Their latest pilot's contract extention has some wording in it regarding duty and trip rigs to protect their utilization vs. pay for just that reason.
SWA is positioning itself to be able to run anybody out of any market that they desire to serve, be it a city pairing or a market segment (last minute business traveller, discount vacationer, etc.)
You can't argue with success...
Their latest pilot's contract extention has some wording in it regarding duty and trip rigs to protect their utilization vs. pay for just that reason.
SWA is positioning itself to be able to run anybody out of any market that they desire to serve, be it a city pairing or a market segment (last minute business traveller, discount vacationer, etc.)
You can't argue with success...
While it is true a few mainline pilots receive high wages for working 12 days a month that is the exception and not the rule. Usually, only the senior pilots get the positions that allow high pay AND few days on the job. The media loves to quote what the number one pilot makes at a major, mis-leading the public on what the true average pay is for an airline pilot. I would think that any professional pilot would know that. I am a furloughed mainline pilot, I can assure you that I never received "high pay" and I did worked at least 18 days per month.
As far as SWA goes, IMHO they not only have a great business model but have achieved a powerful presence in the communities that want their service. In order to get SWA to provide sevice to an airport near me, local goverment officials provided market research, improved airport facilities by building more gates and enlarging the terminal for SWA and even promised that the airport authority would not court JetBlue. This airport was already served by 4 major airlines. It took a couple of years but the airport got SWA and SWA has been very successful here.
As far as SWA goes, IMHO they not only have a great business model but have achieved a powerful presence in the communities that want their service. In order to get SWA to provide sevice to an airport near me, local goverment officials provided market research, improved airport facilities by building more gates and enlarging the terminal for SWA and even promised that the airport authority would not court JetBlue. This airport was already served by 4 major airlines. It took a couple of years but the airport got SWA and SWA has been very successful here.