JetBlue Ab Initio Program ?

[PsubS]

Ahhhh, grasshoppah....you have just two choices.

You may allow your family to fly on a jet with:

1. An experienced pilot with 4500+ hours flight time, hired and trained to use their judgement to safely fly a 45 million dollar, .8 mach machine that holds 190 people and flies at 39,000 feet, through and around weather that would tear it apart,

or

2. A non-pilot, hired specifically to start and finish training with the capability to physically fly that same jet in the same conditions, but without the experience and judgement...

 

[Blue Dude]

Is it not fair to say that we were all at one point "non-pilots" who needed such training?

Oh yeah, you got me. I didn't emerge from the womb with an ATP so obviously I'm a hypocrite for preferring to hire one of the (many, available, turning them away at the door) experienced pilots than someone with no flight experience at all.

 

[bafanguy]

...hire one of the (many, available, turning them away at the door) experienced pilots...

Why is that happening ? Just the usual situation: lots more qualified people than the number of openings to be filled ?

Even IF the ab initio program comes about, any people produced by it are years away. Too many years to influence current hiring, I'd think.

 

[flyboyike]

Oh yeah, you got me. I didn't emerge from the womb with an ATP so obviously I'm a hypocrite for preferring to hire one of the (many, available, turning them away at the door) experienced pilots than someone with no flight experience at all.

I don't believe I accused anyone of being a hypocrite. What I said was rather more nuanced. We all started at zero time, we all needed tons of training, this program (if it even comes to fruition) will be one of what appears to be at least seven paths to B6, and (from what I can tell) it will probably be the one least taken since the costs will be even greater than the "more traditional" routes, while, as bafanguy correctly pointed out, by the time any of these people make it through, the world will have flipped over twenty-seven separate times.

From where I sit, that potato farm will have more of a long-term impact than this program.

 

[flyingitalian]

The FO of Air France 447, who held the controls full aft right into the water was an ab initio pilot.

 

[bafanguy]

The FO of Air France 447, who held the controls full aft right into the water was an ab initio pilot.

And, IIRC, the Germanwings kid was also an ab initio product. So by your criterion of "one bad example as incontrovertible proof of the fitness of the entire group", not only are ab initios incompetent but also psychotic mass murders.

This ab initio bunch is clearly dangerous. :laugh:

[just pullin' yer chain ]

 

[oldxfr8dog]

One point about the Germanwings maniac: The traditional US method of time building gives countless greater opportunities for scrutiny. Perhaps he would have been detected earlier.
Ab initio arent necessarily dangerous, but the traditional route has served our industry well.

 

[mike12345]

I was actually approached by someone at planet fitness who has seen me in my uniform before I changed who asked if he should still be flying JetBlue. Of course I reassured him (and insisted these guys wouldn't be flying until 2020 or so anyway and a captain til 2025-ish), but this program does have at least some of the American public worried regardless of whether it is common in Europe or not.

 

[bafanguy]

I was actually approached by someone at planet fitness who has seen me in my uniform before I changed who asked if he should still be flying JetBlue.

I'm surprised the public is even aware of such a small program even with the occasional newspaper article talking about it.

Just keep those ticket prices low and John Q. Public will knock down the doors getting to your airplanes.

 

[Vingus]

Please stop comparing civilian ab-initio programs to military flight training.

When these programs have students a 500 kts at the bottom of a loop or 3 feet away from another airplane at 90 degrees of bank, then you can talk. But until then......

 

[Traderd]

I'm surprised the public is even aware of such a small program even with the occasional newspaper article talking about it.

Just keep those ticket prices low and John Q. Public will knock down the doors getting to your airplanes.

The articles keep showing up. Guess the editors believe readers find the idea interesting.

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/jetblue-shakes-up-pilot-hiring-by-training-them-from-scratch/

"JetBlue plans to begin accepting applications in the first quarter and to open training in mid-2016. Successful trainees would join the airline as first officers in 2020. Gateway 7 will consider applicants with no previous training as well as those with flight experience, McGraw said. Prospective pilots would pay for their own training."

"Recruits also would take academic classes at JetBlue before moving to a partner company to gain the required 1,500 hours of flying time. They then would return to New York-based JetBlue, or could apply at another airline."

Pay to play and partner companies to build time. Sounds like an odd way to address any of the training or shortage issues.

 

[bafanguy]

If this below is the case, why bother with the Gateway 7 program ? Indentured servitude pilots would be pretty small numbers and don't seem worth this much trouble to the company. I must be missing something:

"The program isn't a response to a potential pilot shortage, McGraw said. JetBlue, the fifth-largest U.S. airline, receives thousands of candidates for pilot positions and expects that to continue. Rather, Gateway 7 will supplement six existing recruiting efforts at the airline, he said."

 

[livin'thesim]

In order to compare the proposed Jet Blue program to the US military, you would need to probably spend similar amounts of time and money creating such aviators.

 

[bafanguy]

The topic has gotten more media attention lately. There was a segment on The Today Show this week...and this article appeared:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryn...-u-s-acceptance-of-global-training-standards/

Still not full details.

 

[BeachBummer]

There are no details because the details haven't been finalized by jetblue or approved by the FAA...

I really am not putting much stock in the program and predict it will fade away with little or no fan fare. The only bad press is no press?

...now by saying this I'm in no way saying that I endorse the program, but these guys will have to be better than some of the 500-600hr E145 pilots I got to fly with at the regional level.

 

[xjt40]

Yet ab-initio programs have been used in the rest of the world with great success for decades. British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Lufthansa, Quantas, and others have used cadetships to their advantage. The testing is rigorous to qualify and then you can tailor the individual from day 1 to be exactly the pilot you want, following your SOP from the get go.
With flight training becoming prohibitively expensive (especially if you go to college too) this seems like the perfect way to ensure a stream of highly qualified, highly motivated and dedicated employees.
Now, does it suck for the people who have applied and failed? Yes, sure it does but if you failed to get hired is that the company's fault or yours?
Does this mean the company will stop its traditional hiring? No, because it takes years to get an ab-initio student to the right seat of a 320 or 190.
Will this encourage some people to start flying who otherwise wouldn't because it was cost prohibitive? Yes.
Does every branch of the US military use ab-initio to pretty great success? Hell yes and I defy any of you to say that the US military's pilots are somehow sub standard because of it.
I just don't see the issue with this at all.

I see an issue with this . I am a guy that will have to land a 321 in Santiago at 0400 with weather , mechanical issues , mountains and lack of rest because Jetblue makes their reserves fly these types of trips with as much as a 21 hour duty day if it's a tail end deadhead . And you think it's pretty cool to have 2 exhausted guys doing this when one has no clue what's going on because he hasn't seen the real weather , failure ,fatigue ,mountains in a real jet much less one that holds 190 people . Oh yeah no problem here sign me right up put all my family members in the back of that jet . At the end of my trip my family would like to see me . The next thing will be they sign a training contract with big blue like a skanky 135 operator .

 

[CX880]

Why is JetBlue so obsessed with creating their own "hitler youth" of pilots? They prefer yes men obviously but is it worth creating them?

 

[flyboyike]

Why is JetBlue so obsessed with creating their own "hitler youth" of pilots? They prefer yes men obviously but is it worth creating them?

Depending on the numbers, it may be...

 

[BeachBummer]

http://youtu.be/919IA_Lj0Ko

That bout sums that up! Lmao

 

[Splert]

This program does not make sense for BlueJet. It might for other carriers that are going to lose hundreds a month due to age 65-70.

So why is BlueJet doing the leg work for A4A?

Money. IMO Blujet is being paid to be the bow wave to change the FARs not for just BlueJet but for all Part 121 carriers and the A4A is footing the bill.

No proof but it is the only reason IMO why BlueJet is leading G7 to provide the A4A the data it needs to reduce the ATP requirements.

 

[bafanguy]

Any recent scuttlebutt about this program ?