Jet Blue

[Captain Overs]

The more I hear out of these guys the more I realize they are nothing but a Regional airline who happens to fly Airbus. They have a "Mesa" mentality with larger aircraft. Think I'm wrong? Who smoked the crackpipe the night the E-190 wages were set?

By the way... you can flame if you like. I don't feel compelled to try and defend myself.

 

[Capt. X]

Pay

I agree with Captain Overs

Once I saw the payscale for the 190 at $80 per hour after 12 years with service I nearly fell off my chair. Why has there been such a differnces in pay between the A320 when the seats are only a few more. This is setting a presidence to the whole Union and management that you can still pay your pilots crap! ALPA would have at least got over $100 per hour for this new all glass cockpit, and the pilots at JetBlue deserve to get paid more then flying the 190. I hope you guys and Gals band together to let management know you are just as good as the A320 sticks and should be compensated that way.. Good luck to you all, espessially the 190 drivers.

 

[B-atch]

Its called Mass Hipnosis....It actually starts the day that you interview with JB...It's the only logical explanation for such a CROCK#$#@^%$$#^$!!!

 

[Dizel8]

100 seats vs 156, that is one third more if my math is correct.
Using your logic, a NWA DC-9 driver should get as much as the 757 pilot, how come we are not debating that or the single pay scale at AW.

As for ALPA getting more, I hope you will take a look at the ALPA carriers getting the E-170 and 190.

However, we can agree on, that pay could be better.

 

[AA717driver]

Dizel--I'm afraid the pay issue will cause trouble down the road when you have classes split between the 320 and 190. Fifteen bucks an hour is a lot for two years.

Eventually, people won't be upgrading into the left seat of the 190 within a year (as projected by my friends at JB). This will leave many newhires stranded at $37-40/hr. for a long time.

I hope JB management has the foresight to raise the rates when things slow down. (And after all the unionized carriers have signed contracts with 190 wages based on the current JB pay. Hah! Joke's on them. )TC

 

[Dizel8]

Well, rumour has it, that Midatlantic is raisng their rates, because too many E-170 pilots looking at JB.

As for the other issues, yeah I hear you. In the current financial climate, I doubt any changes will be made, but hopefully, once we get a handle on this thing, pay will follow.

 

[General Lee]

At least you can see now that your company has imposed low rates on you that will affect you guys and every regional that has less seats than the 100 seat E-190. Every Regional negotiator will have those JB rates in his/her hands as they sit down at the table, and ask "how can we compete with JB and their 100 seat planes when you want more on a 50 or 70 seater?" Then, the negotiator will look back at the mirror in the backround and wink, nod, and smile---knowing that the Regional CEO and President are high fiving each other and calling Neeleman for a free Dinner at Ruth Chris Steak house........all you can eat rib-eye!


Sad scenario, but probably true in the future.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[8vATE]

The more I hear out of these guys the more I realize they are nothing but a Regional airline who happens to fly Airbus. They have a "Mesa" mentality with larger aircraft. Think I'm wrong? Who smoked the crackpipe the night the E-190 wages were set?

By the way... you can flame if you like. I don't feel compelled to try and defend myself.

Hmmm...

To flame?
Or not to flame..?


I suspect you've never worked for a Kalitta, or an Air Tahoma..
Or MESA......

If you did...

You would know your statement comparing jb to mesa is ludicrous...

wow..

little jetblue who doesn't even HAVE an EMB190...

we are so POWERFUL that ALPA negotiators can't get you guys what YOU DESERVE....

Keep blaming the competition....

If the pay is so bad...
no one will come to work here..
morale will spin down the toilet and this place will go poof!

so don't worry about us..

why don't all you WHINERS worry about YOUR OWN COMPANY'S PROFITABILITY!!!!!!!

hello?
anybody out there??

 

[General Lee]

Hmmm...

To flame?
Or not to flame..?


I suspect you've never worked for a Kalitta, or an Air Tahoma..
Or MESA......

If you did...

You would know your statement is ludicrous...

He can see that $89 an hour as a 12th year Captain on a 100 seat aircraft is ridiculous. I think everyone hopes that you guys try to do something about that someday. If your company can afford it, then you should go for it. When companies cannot, then pay cuts come along. It seems like you took a pay cut on an airplane you didn't have and really didn't say much because all of you are not on that aircraft. It seems like a slap in the face to every newhire on that plane, plus most Regional guys who know that in the future that pay scale will be the benchmark. He seems upset and is expressing his opinion. Is that a flame?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

Comair got better rates in their "new" contract, how was that possible, if the company had everyones contract in hand? How come the pay at ACA did not follow?

How come DAL got more than NWA? How come AA got less and AW almost nothing?

There is much difference in company profiles and misions, hence pay will be different. What company A does will not neccesarily be what company B does.

As is always pointed out, jetblue has no union, hence there were no negotiations, but those airlines that do have one, should be able to make their argument accordingly. After all, isn't that the whole point of a union?

Had jetblue instituted a single payscale, ie pay on the E-190 was equal to the bus, do you think the other airlines would have followed, I am thinking probably not. Management at those airlines would still argue with their employees. Heck, the Comair boys had to strike to get anywhere!

The EMB-190 isn't here yet and as you are aware, times are tough. JB management must be aware of what will happen once better times comes along and the airplane shows it potential. If they do the right thing, awesome, if not, then we have become like everyone else.

 

[8vATE]

He can see that $89 an hour as a 12th year Captain on a 100 seat aircraft is ridiculous. I think everyone hopes that you guys try to do something about that someday. If your company can afford it, then you should go for it. When companies cannot, then pay cuts come along. It seems like you took a pay cut on an airplane you didn't have and really didn't say much because all of you are not on that aircraft. It seems like a slap in the face to every newhire on that plane, plus most Regional guys who know that in the future that pay scale will be the benchmark. He seems upset and is expressing his opinion. Is that a flame?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Keep blaming us Lee..
you got nothing better to do..?

I sat in 3 pilot meetings last summer..
the senior VP of OPs, the President of the Company, the CEO of the company, the Director of Ops and the chief pilot told us what the PLAN was.. and why...

I think I may actually know more than you on this topic..
Hard for you to grasp...?

Yes.... there is no doubt the EMB rates are not your typical 100 seat rates..
but is there anything typical about where the industry is???

The EMB190 rate difference strikes me as not much different from the A320 rate difference from the THEN average... not to even mention the ORIGINAL A320 rates that went UP..

My main point all along to you is..

this is capitalism... free markets...
things usually gravitate to an equilibrium...

and the gravy train is over for many reasons..
don't delude yourself...

the biggest factor I believe is SWAs critical mass and the need to be ultraefficient and ultracompetitive..

FWIW...

No bombs thrown...

 

[General Lee]

Alright, no bombs thrown. Good, I like it better this way believe it or not. I bet you do know more than I do about your rates, just like I know a lot about the Delta financial fiasco. Anyway, I think many people were stunned by the rates, and not just Major pilots. That pay rate for such a big plane affects everyone below it. Here you have all of these pilots wanting to go to Jetblue because it is the next big thing, and those rates were given to you by management. A lot of people I know (regional pilots) suddenly didn't want to go to Jetblue. I am sure there are still plenty of people who do, but many people changed their minds after seeing them. It also looked like a lot of your current bus drivers didn't seem to care much since they would probably get that quick A320 upgrade and not have to deal with the E190 ever. That is what I am trying to point out. I am sure Neeleman tried to show you the "plan" and how you could beat the pants off everyone else with those rates, but a 12 year Captain flying a very advanced 100 seater----only $89 an hour? Come on man! Someday I hope you get that raised somehow.... Someday I hope we at Delta go back to our old payscale.......(slowly I am sure----I have 20 years to go to 60)



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

We are discussing 12th year pay, yet the airplane is not on the property and no pilot has been trained.

Soemtimes I think we get a bit ahead of ourselves! If the actual 12th year EMB-190 pilot ever gets current payrate, then the finest steak dinner is on me complete with good scotch and Cuban cigars.

 

[General Lee]

We are discussing 12th year pay, yet the airplane is not on the property and no pilot has been trained.

Soemtimes I think we get a bit ahead of ourselves! If the actual 12th year EMB-190 pilot ever gets current payrate, then the finest steak dinner is on me complete with good scotch and Cuban cigars.

Will you be going to Cuba by then? Song will, I hope..... Think of all of the prime beach real estate!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[8vATE]

Anyway, I think many people were stunned by the rates, and not just Major pilots. That pay rate for such a big plane affects everyone below it. Bye Bye--General Lee

Yes...

We can finally agree to something...

I came from flying the infamous F100 and DC9 ..
so I was familiar with "100" seat rates....

but after getting over the initial shock of seeing the numbers...
and they are low..

I went to the meetings..
I looked at the industry ...

I looked at the career progression of a jetBlue newhire..

and I saw that this was still hard to stomach..
but its here...and there is a plan...
one of which is to be viable and profitable...

and the airplane hasn't even turned a wheel in revenue service..
(don't tell anyone but jetblue's chink in the armor is "will this thing be reliable and make its numbers?")

soooooooo...

the head cheese's have stated in numerous meetings that rates may go up...
but they would rather be conservative starting out and under promise than to have ask for givebacks if this turd sinks...

you may believe what you want ..
and blame us for everyone's misery..

and I wish ASA/CMR/SKYWEST weren't being pinched by this...
but who said those guys were immune from the woes of the industry...?
(and I supported the CMR guys to the tune of about $500 during the strike)

One thing I can say to you and others..
Leadership and the pilot group is very concerned about newhire income streams...
there is a sizeable EMB bidding document going out soon that talks about this at length..

as I mentioned previously...

if no one wants to come work here..
or we all get mad and scuttle the ship by being confrontational and demanding...
this place will quickly go poof!!
we will disappear..
and you guys can repaint your 757s...

 

[General Lee]

The green 757s with TVs are here to stay......I like the color...people like the TVs.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

The problem that exists here with you folks is that many do not remember what starting salary for the Bus was here 5 years ago!!!! Capt was $78/hr and F/O $43. I don't remember where the hoopla was then about our pay??? Now with that in mind, after a year and a half of operations, everyone got a 32% raise just prior to 9/11-- the time period when most airlines started their tailspin. The management here would rather be in the business of incrementally increasing our pay vs. requesting 30%+ givebacks. Once the E-190 gains momentum as is makes the 50 seat RJs obsolete, you can expect the pay to come up to a more livable rate. AND NO ONE IS BEING FORCED TO FLY THE 190. New-hires will have a choice on which aircraft they choose, and right now, a smart one would choose the 190 because the charts show that for the first 2 years (their lock) they will come out ahead in total pay vs a Bus new hire (upgrade 2+ years). By the way, the company rescinded our 32% pay increase after 9/11 occurred, only to reinstate it a few months later, retroactive the effective date!!!! AND OH, I got my raise in the middle of my signed 5 year contract-- how many LEGACY carriers ever gave you guys a raise in the middle of your contract? HUH???

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

So you're the owner of that 1973 VW Super Beetle in the employee lot!

The green 757s with TVs are here to stay......I like the color...people like the TVs.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You are so retro!

 

[colorado418]

Anyway, I think many people were stunned by the rates, and not just Major pilots. That pay rate for such a big plane affects everyone below it. Here you have all of these pilots wanting to go to Jetblue because it is the next big thing, and those rates were given to you by management. A lot of people I know (regional pilots) suddenly didn't want to go to Jetblue.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Funny,
I remember when we were just getting little "regional jets". Now they are big!! yippee!!

As for those that don't want to come to JetBlue.... ...... .....

I guess it is obvious what they need to do.......

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

A point often missed about JB rates...

We are discussing 12th year pay, yet the airplane is not on the property and no pilot has been trained.

Sometimes I think we get a bit ahead of ourselves! If the actual 12th year EMB-190 pilot ever gets current payrate, then the finest steak dinner is on me complete with good scotch and Cuban cigars.

...I am tired of the JB flames about the rates and pulling down the industry. Yes, they are low, but the most senior pilot at JB isn't even half way to the 12th year and the rates will change by then. Plus, a Captain with that seniority will be on the A320.

The JB career progression still offers the pilot bigger equipment with better pay, a regional does not. At the regional, that is the biggest equipment, it's not entry level.

It boils down to how much you have to work, how much pay, benefits, and retirement you'll have at the end of the career. JB still be provide more in the end than the regionals.

Dizel 8: I doubt you will have to pay on your bet for two reasons.

1. The rates will change and a pilot could be on the bigger equipment by then.

2. All that scotch and Cuban cigars, I doubt you'll make it another 12 years, if you don't end up in a federal prison for smugglin' them Cubans up your arse through Customs first. "I thought you said these were Cubans? How come they taste like sh!t?"