JBLU in hot water with FAA

[JP4user]

It is a good thing that Blue didn't have an incident or accident during this "experiment". But I doubt the either woefully ignorant or completely arrogant management and pilots that cooked up this scheme thought about those potential ramifications.

 

[FDJ2]

What would be more fattiguing, 8 hrs of flying, 6 landings and 16 hours on duty or 10hrs, 2 landings with 13 hrs of duty. I know which one I would choose!

Luckily at my carrier, because of our PWA, we aren't required to do either one of those. When we do have a long international flight we have an approved crew rest seat.

Dizel, both of those scenarios are too much. The answer isn't to extend crew duty, as some of your fellow JBLU dudes want to do, but to work to make duty times more restrictive.

 

[crashpad]

DESPERATE TIMES REQUIRE DESPERATE MEASURES!!!!

Shame on these pilots!

This is one slippery slope the Jet Blues pilots have rought upon themselves!

 

[Caveman]

If we look past the jetblue issue for a moment, maybe we could get a discussion going on what we might feel is a better set of FAR's wrt. duty and flightime limits. Personally, I think the JAR's are a vastly improved set of rules.

Alright, I'll play. No more than a 12 hour scheduled duty day with unlimited scheduled block but no more than 3 landings per pilot. The day can go up to 14 hours to allow for delays, but 14 hours is a hard number just like the current 16 hour day. Minimum rest of 11 hours that can never be reduced. Why 11? It allows for 1.5 hours after block-in to get to the hotel and grab a bite to eat, 8 hours of sleep, and 1.5 hours to wake up and grab a bite to eat before going back to work. Official rest time will end at van time. I can tolerate the ride to the hotel being on my time but van time in the morning means I'm back on the clock.

 

[JBFlyer]

I smell a coverup.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You almost got it right General, except what you're smelling is a "set-up". Unions using contacts in the media and the FAA to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Unions don't like it and are doing what they can to discredit JB in the eyes of the public and the FAA.

 

[Dizel8]

Alright, I'll play. No more than a 12 hour scheduled duty day with unlimited scheduled block but no more than 3 landings per pilot. The day can go up to 14 hours to allow for delays, but 14 hours is a hard number just like the current 16 hour day. Minimum rest of 11 hours that can never be reduced. Why 11? It allows for 1.5 hours after block-in to get to the hotel and grab a bite to eat, 8 hours of sleep, and 1.5 hours to wake up and grab a bite to eat before going back to work. Official rest time will end at van time. I can tolerate the ride to the hotel being on my time but van time in the morning means I'm back on the clock.

Sounds reasonable to me, it certainly is a start!

 

[Gorilla]

Augmentation (extra pilots) and reasonable crew rest seats or bunks onboard go a long way towards making difficult trips safe. For those of you who've never worked with an augmented crew, remember what it's like at 4:OO AM with a normal two-man crew after some hard flying; you'd give anything for 15 minutes of snooze, and if you get it by any means, you feel a lot better. Imagine 2 or 3 hours of sleep. That's what you get with an FB and FC. Doing a 4-man crew to Tokyo at the weirdest body hours is easier than a domestic all-nighter, as it relates to fatigue.

That said, I think FAA crew rest restrictions are critical. They are the one thing in the 121 world where every company is level, and no one has an advantage. We've got to avoid opening that door any wider than it already is.

 

[JP4user]

Unions don't like it and are doing what they can to discredit JB in the eyes of the public and the FAA.

You guys are doing a great job of bringing discredit and disdain all by yourselves with this stunt.

 

[FDJ2]

Alright, I'll play. No more than a 12 hour scheduled duty day with unlimited scheduled block but no more than 3 landings per pilot. The day can go up to 14 hours to allow for delays, but 14 hours is a hard number just like the current 16 hour day.

That sounds good, but why the increase to unlimited scheduled block? Why not leave it at 8 hours?

 

[Sluggo_63]

Unions don't like it and are doing what they can to discredit JB in the eyes of the public and the FAA.

I have no dog in this fight, but how can JB be discredited in the eyes in the FAA if the FAA approved it? It seems to be that they didn't.

 

[Lake Alice]

The majority of the public has no clue and the company wont feel much of an aftershock. The FAA gave its blessing and is now trying to back track. As for JP4...well, not much else needs to be said.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Dizel, both of those scenarios are too much. The answer isn't to extend crew duty, as some of your fellow JBLU dudes want to do, but to work to make duty times more restrictive.

FDJ2, I disagree with many of your posts, but I'm 100% with you on this!

 

[Caveman]

That sounds good, but why the increase to unlimited scheduled block? Why not leave it at 8 hours?

IMO block hours aren't the issue. It's the 16 hour duty day that's the asskicker. If you keep the duty day to a reasonable length I don't think actual block is a problem. My only concern would be for some guys working their tails off at a commuter. That's where the 3 landings per pilot comes in. It would limit a crew to no more than 6 legs. If for example, a 1900 crew needed to fly 7 legs to get a decent amount of block time maybe you could reduce the duty day to say 11 ( or 10) hours. It's still a lot of flying but if the duty day is shorter it might be doable. In any case, everybody gets the mandatory 11 hours of rest between duty periods.

 

[FDJ2]

IMO block hours aren't the issue.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but IMHO, 8 hours is plenty enough flying for one day. Even 8 hours is pushing it. If the company needs more flying, let them hire another pilot. If they want to add a relief pilot and adequate crew rest onboard, maybe, as long as each pilot gets a minimum of two or more straight hours of uninterrupted rest depending on the number of block hours flown. I see no safety advantage in increasing the maximum block hours above 8hrs. I do like your minimum 11 hour layover idea and reducing the number of legs flown.

 

[Spectre]

In my 9 months of working at Jetblue, I have flown with pilots that came over from United, Delta, US Airways, TWA, AA, America West, Navy, Air Force, USMC, Army, Coast Guard, and every Regional you can think of. Many of these guys including me were ALPA pilots. If for one second you think this whole pilot group is behind this test or most of the crap that goes on over here, you are dead wrong.

Most of the pilots here want to organize in one way or another. Some of our pilots are waiting for recalls back to the majors and most will take it. This is not my first airline job, and most likely not the last. It is what it is, a pay check!

Every airline has their version of the management kiss @$$'$, one may be sitting next to you at your airline of choice! Don't roll every Jetblue pilot under the bus for the actions of a very small minority.

I commuted down to work the other day and shared a cab with an AA, and DAL pilot. They commuted in from the west coast and were headed on a trip across the pond. Not for one second is this practice safe, but we all do it to ourselves in oneway shape or form, legal or not.

Enjoy your day guys, but every airline pushes us to the limit and its up to us to stop it dead in the tracks. This program was once again flown by a very small minority over here and not endorsed by the whole pilot group!!!!

As you stated, "most here are former ALPA." Correct. And that's why you won't see a union here ever. I'm recalled to NWA and I'm NOT going back. Most here defer recall idiot. Why would you go back if you can defer recall? It's an insurance policy that's much better than getting furloughed again when business turns south. Last I know, there haven't been any furloughs at JB, nor 30% paycuts. Hope you leave JB quickly if you get recalled so you can earn your PAYCHECK somewhere else. This airline doesn't push you to any limit. You have a schedule and the ability to fly as much or as little as you want. Get a life.

Finally, you guys all miss the boat. This was a study on FATIGUE in the cockpit. Everyone has underlined the fact that it was a test done to extend our duty day and do transcon turns. In reality, it was a study done to improve our knowledge on fatigue. Ever fly between 12am and 6am from the west coast? You will hear nothing but JB call signs as we probably do more red-eyes than any other airline out there. JB has a training course on DVD that identifies areas of fatigue and how to better prepare yourself for red-eyes and day sleeps. Utilizing some results from this scientific study has helped develop this training course. Does ALPA give you guys such training? What are those union dues doing for you lately?

 

[scoreboard]

What are those union dues doing for you lately?

Not allowing any Red Eyes.:erm:

Seriously, I am with Caveman here. However why not a simple 12 hour duty day max, 12 hour rest. Block in to block out.

Restricting landings is an idea, but need to make it 3 flown, 3 observed, or else scheduling could swap Capt with you and you stay in the seat for 8 legs. I still think even with a 12 hour limit, there would need to be some flight time limit, 12 hour butt time in 737 or RJ just isn't right. Maybe 9 hour flight time max. Figure thats about max with a 12 hour day, a turn or two, pre-flt, post flight, etc.

 

[JP4user]

What a crock..but a nice attempt at rationalization.

Finally, you guys all miss the boat. This was a study on FATIGUE in the cockpit. Everyone has underlined the fact that it was a test done to extend our duty day and do transcon turns. In reality, it was a study done to improve our knowledge on fatigue.

Glad to see Blue is taking the lead in this "study" with paying passengers on board, while in contravention to regs. and common sense. I guess that NASA and all the others organizations that have done these fatigue studies over and over again is irrelavant?

You can rationalize it anyway you like. It will certainly help getting your contract extended. Which by the way, here is a good reason people pay dues. They don't have to worry about not getting a contract renewed if you would say..refuse to participate in some charade like this?

 

[JP4user]

As for JP4...well, not much else needs to be said.

Alice, I undestand how you feel. I would be embarassed as hell after my 190 w2..I mean cleaning a cabin...no wait ...signing a contract...no .. I really mean watching 29 of my peers make us look like fools to the rest of the pilots in the industry.

But you're right. Given the above, not much else needs to be said.

 

[Spectre]

Glad to see Blue is taking the lead in this "study" with paying passengers on board, while in contravention to regs. and common sense. I guess that NASA and all the others organizations that have done these fatigue studies over and over again is irrelavant?

You can rationalize it anyway you like. It will certainly help getting your contract extended. Which by the way, here is a good reason people pay dues. They don't have to worry about not getting a contract renewed if you would say..refuse to participate in some charade like this?

But NASA studies were done many years ago. There have been many advances in technology and knowledge on fatigue since then. Furthermore, I think JetBlue can be proud of its safety record.

NO pilot at JB has ever been let go because a "contract" was not renewed. Get off it. Maybe you can give us an example of one pilot eh? ALPA dues don't protect you guys from losing your jobs. Thousands of your fellow ALPA pilots are on furlough and their union dues didn't help them a bit.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

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[Rez O. Lewshun]

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[DougsRule]

I hope these 29 clowns get violated by the Feds!

 

[FlyPig]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the original article says at the end that Dave Bushy left for another carrier. Wasn't he the Chief Pilot? Anyone know where he went and why?

 

[Capn Mike]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the original article says at the end that Dave Bushy left for another carrier. Wasn't he the Chief Pilot? Anyone know where he went and why?

VP Flight Ops went to Cape Air as COO.

 

[JP4user]

But NASA studies were done many years ago. There have been many advances in technology and knowledge on fatigue since then. Furthermore, I think JetBlue can be proud of its safety record.

NO pilot at JB has ever been let go because a "contract" was not renewed. Get off it. Maybe you can give us an example of one pilot eh? ALPA dues don't protect you guys from losing your jobs. Thousands of your fellow ALPA pilots are on furlough and their union dues didn't help them a bit.

ALPA sucks no doubt about that. But rest assured when the management philospohy over there changes and they decide to start getting rid of people that are are vocal and are fed up with lousy pay benefits and working conditions we shall see what tune you sing then about union representation. It is only a matter of time since the kool aid flavor can only last so long.

BTW, I agree with the above poster. I hope the feds nail the 29 research scientists to the wall.

 

[FDJ2]

VP Flight Ops went to Cape Air as COO.

Any discussion at JBLU over Bushy's departure? Was it at all related to this experiment?

 

[pgcfii2002]

Somehow I see this turning into a PFT arguement.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I hope these 29 clowns get violated by the Feds!

I agree totally!!

I also hope that the Feds violate these 29 "Stupid" clowns; as they 'knowingly' violated the FARs. And, also they 'should' be smart enough to know that NO POI can give a pilot (or a company) approval/authority to violate the FARs, and has NO authority to issue an 'exemption' to the regs.

Here is just a little info for all of the 'armchair experts' that have posted on this thread so far. I have seen numerous POIs interpret the FAR in various ways; however, the ONLY "official" interpretation of any FAR comes from FAA Legal Div. in Washington DC. That is the only interpretation that will hold up in court; and letter (or call) by any one of the "jacka$$" pilots that was stupid enough to even get involved in this, or from the company, would have given them assurance that what they were doing was 'correct and legal.'

I think that it is abolutely 'insane' that a company would undertake such an "experiment" based solely on "approval" of the POI, and never even think to question, FAA Regional, FAA Washington, or FAA Legal. That just shows their 'mentality' or just their "Stupidity." And, if it was Not 'legal' then they (the company and pilots both) should pay the consequences; which could involve fines ($1,000/flight, occurance, or more), and certification actions against the pilots.

I'm just waiting for someone in the TV media (60 minutes, CNN, Foxnews, Dateline, etc.) to get a hold of this, then you'll see people really 'pointing fingers' and running scared.

Just my $0.02, for what its worth.

DA

 

[relief tube]

Can't wait to get a JB jumpseater to bring this up with.

Get a union or grow a pair, don't let this start.

It's not going to lead to better QOL as mgmt isn't going to let us all have 18 days off, no they're going to up our Monthly credits to 100+ hours.

If this is Neelman's money-saving follow-up to their regional-like 190 rates then he can go to hell. Listen buddy, you grew too fast and that "irrational competition" you whined about was actually you and your $39 Boston shuttle fares. Don't take it out on your pilot group that apparently doesn't know any better.

 

[Dizel8]

Can't wait to get a JB jumpseater to bring this up with.

Odds are, he is as peed off as you are about this, but if you feel the need to give the sermon...........