JBLU in hot water with FAA

[JP4user]

Unfortunately, any NPRM efforts from jB will be from managements perspective. The pilots position will be largely.... silent...

No, they will also get those with the scab like mentality and ass kissers hoping to get into management pushing for this. That earlier poster who admitted it was a perfect example.

Do the transcon boys get a relief from the cleaning expectation?

 

[JBFlyer]

Here's some flambait.....

This is just another move by legacy carriers worried by B6 success. They fork out dough to some of their contacts to bring out this story in hopes of tarnishing B6's image with the FAA and the public. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if some union had something to do with this also.

Is it that far-fetched????? Think about it.

 

[FDJ2]

How about the DL customers who ride on one of the seemingly countless RJs and T-props in JFK these days. Are they aware that those pilots have probably flown their 8th leg of the day and are on their 14th hour? Give me a break. Come on FDJ2 you can do better than that.

Legal and in compliance vs. illegal and in non compliance. It doesn't get any easier than that, unless of course you have an all too eager and immature management team and pilot that doesn't realize you need more than just permission of your local Fed.

Crew duty time standards need to be tightened, not relaxed.

 

[tomgoodman]

Choosing fatigue?

Many commuting pilots routinely disregard the need for proper rest by non-revving halfway across the country and then flying a full duty day. Not a violation, because the commute is considered voluntary and "off the clock". Some have predicted that we are only one accident away from an FAA clampdown in this area.

 

[Caveman]

Legal and in compliance vs. illegal and in non compliance. It doesn't get any easier than that, unless of course you have an all too eager and immature management team and pilot group that doesn't realize you need more than just permission of your local Fed.

It wasn't illegal or noncompliant. It was done with the specific approval and cooperation of the FAA representative responsbile for JetBlue's operation. The feds may have a question regarding delegation of authority within their ranks, but JetBlue sought and got permission from their point of contact. How was JetBlue supposed to know whether or not the POI was operating within the scope of his/her office? For every thing else JetBlue wants do do they start by corresponding with their POI. Why should this be any different? If the POI overstepped his office, his boss and you can take it up with him. It doesn't get any easier than that, unless of course you're trying to twist the truth to meet your agenda.

 

[MountainFreak]

Caveman, you are dead wrong. If JB management thought they had the proper approval, then they have shown themselves to be incompetents.

The duty time regulations are verbatim from the FAR's, and are thus FEDERAL LAW. They can only be changed by Congress, or by the appropriate agency, at the highest level, after a specific administrative or judicial procedure (see the NPRM reference in an earlier post). This is true for ALL Federal agencies, not just the FAA.

If the pilots flew past those limits, then they and JB violated FAR's, period. The local FSDO, or even some department in FAA HQ has no authority to change FAR's. They may sometimes interpret a grey area of the FAR's, and they often create rules within parameters laid out by the FAR's, but they can't just go and change the source document. I'm not sure where the JB legal department was on this one, but management should have known (especially flight ops management). I am not stating my opinion on the validity of the study (though I have one), only on how JB thinks they can do what they want. They deserve this article. The management I mean, not the many good bros I know who fly for JB.

 

[tailhookah]

tomgoodmanMany commuting pilots routinely disregard the need for proper rest by non-revving halfway across the country and then flying a full duty day. Not a violation, because the commute is considered voluntary and "off the clock". Some have predicted that we are only one accident away from an FAA clampdown in this area.

What will the FAA mandate if what you say is true???? Have us report 8 hours prior to our show time and go to sleep on the company clock???? The FAA will never be able to enforce this... it's no different that your surgeon being well rested before a procedure...

As to the B6 stuff... the majority of B6 pilots are Alpa furloughees and don't want these transcon turns any more that the rest of you... but in defense of the idea I would rather fly 10 hours w/ a limit of 13 or 14 hour duty day than have an 8 hour block limit w/ a 16 hour duty day. Wouldn't you?

Tail

 

[scoreboard]

Capt. Dave Bushy, who championed fatigue-reducing programs as vice president of flight operations before leaving the company earlier this month for another carrier

So where did this guy go?

 

[tailhookah]

He is now the COO at CapeAir... A good man who I will miss. I think he did a lot of good and really looked out for us here.

Tail

 

[Caveman]

Caveman, you are dead wrong. If JB management thought they had the proper approval, then they have shown themselves to be incompetents.

The duty time regulations are verbatim from the FAR's, and are thus FEDERAL LAW. They can only be changed by Congress, or by the appropriate agency, at the highest level, after a specific administrative or judicial procedure (see the NPRM reference in an earlier post). This is true for ALL Federal agencies, not just the FAA.

If the pilots flew past those limits, then they and JB violated FAR's, period. The local FSDO, or even some department in FAA HQ has no authority to change FAR's. They may sometimes interpret a grey area of the FAR's, and they often create rules within parameters laid out by the FAR's, but they can't just go and change the source document. I'm not sure where the JB legal department was on this one, but management should have known (especially flight ops management). I am not stating my opinion on the validity of the study (though I have one), only on how JB thinks they can do what they want. They deserve this article.

The organization that is responsible for managing and enforcing the regs gave us permission and you think JetBlue is at fault? The FSDO is not a separate entity from the FAA. They are part and parcel of the agency. If the POI approved it it's the same as if Blakely (sp?) herself approved it. If this was illegal as you and others are claiming then the feds are responsible, not JetBlue.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

So why is Bushy gone again?

And another thing, notice all the navy squids come out of the woodwork on this thread? Not all the senior blueboys want these transcon turns, it's mostly the navy turds that are trying to suck there way up the company ladder, what most of them say is "we did it in the Navy, so we can do it at JetBlue" Many pilots are thrilled that this story has seen the light of day. I hope that everyone that reads it forwards it to all the news outlets asking why it's not getting airplay. The military "can do" attitude will get people killed, just like AA little rock.

 

[737 Pylt]

He is now the COO at CapeAir... A good man who I will miss. I think he did a lot of good and really looked out for us here.

Tail

Tail:
I agree, Bushy was a pilot person! He did a lot for the DL pilot group in general, and was missed when he left. I find him to be a pretty intelligent guy. Someone who can see the writing on the wall. He got out right before the shiat hit the fan at DL, I can only hope for your guys' sake that the same won't happen to you!
737

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So why is Bushy gone again?

And another thing, notice all the navy squids come out of the woodwork on this thread? Not all the senior blueboys want these transcon turns, it's mostly the navy turds that are trying to suck there way up the company ladder, what most of them say is "we did it in the Navy, so we can do it at JetBlue" Many pilots are thrilled that this story has seen the light of day. I hope that everyone that reads it forwards it to all the news outlets asking why it's not getting airplay. The military "can do" attitude will get people killed, just like AA little rock.

WHOA!

I'd cool it on the MIL/NAVY talk. You can't sterotype an entire organization. It makes your creditibility weak.

-An all CIV guy

 

[whymeworry?]

Of course what the FAA and mgmt fail to consider in their studies is the alertness of crew once an emergency occurs; or, even more common, landing in sever wx conditions... say a typical NY wx event of 30 kt crosswinds in 1/2 mile blowing snow. Not so easy when you're fatigued.

I actually STUDIED fatigue years ago. The one thing pilots and the researchers fail to realize when today's studies are done is that motor skills are the LAST thing to go when you're fatigued. The first thing to go is JUDGEMENT. As most of you on here know, judgement is derived from a database of our own experiences and training. When you get tired you start making stupid decisions, hence your own vast amount of experience (judgement) is no longer there to back you up. Too many pilots use motor skills to judge whether they are fatigued. This is one of the more incorrect or inaccurate ways to measure the initial signs of fatigue.

Look at any accident investigation report. There is almost always an issue of judgement involved. Think the crews may have been suffering from fatigue? Indeed they were but somehow the issue never makes it to the forefront of public debate.

The problem with today's researchers (sleep doctors/ experts etc.) is that they are NOT professional pilots. They do not realize that merely being awake is not the measure of whether a pilot is fit to fly. Yet in their mind, if he or she is awake... well fatigue must not be an issue then. As soon as you start to lose judgement you have the beginnings of fatigue. Let it go unchecked and eventually you will be in trouble.

I'm sick of all these studies and observations of our industry that occur under the most benign condistions. Ex: Our dispatchers and schedulers have to perfrom annual jumpseat requirements. I've never seen them get this done on a bad weather day. They always come out to fly when it's "clear-n-million". Or, take this new CNBC documentary on AA coming up. Haven't seen it yet but from the looks of the trailer it seems like a rather tame environment. Send the researchers/ camera crews/ dispatchers out to fly with us on a $hi**y wx day perhaps after we've gotton no sleep on the layover ($hi**y hotel), etc. You know the story.

Anyone can fly when it's clear and calm. We earn the big bucks (uhhh... yeah) because of what we do when emergencies occur and when weather takes down the whole aviation system.

11 hour back to back coastal flights are wrong.

 

[Capn Mike]

Caveman, you are dead wrong. If JB management thought they had the proper approval, then they have shown themselves to be incompetents.

The duty time regulations are verbatim from the FAR's, and are thus FEDERAL LAW. They can only be changed by Congress, or by the appropriate agency, at the highest level, after a specific administrative or judicial procedure (see the NPRM reference in an earlier post). This is true for ALL Federal agencies, not just the FAA.

If the pilots flew past those limits, then they and JB violated FAR's, period. The local FSDO, or even some department in FAA HQ has no authority to change FAR's. They may sometimes interpret a grey area of the FAR's, and they often create rules within parameters laid out by the FAR's, but they can't just go and change the source document. I'm not sure where the JB legal department was on this one, but management should have known (especially flight ops management). I am not stating my opinion on the validity of the study (though I have one), only on how JB thinks they can do what they want. They deserve this article. The management I mean, not the many good bros I know who fly for JB.

These flights were operated under supplemental flight rules with a relief pilot onboard. Get all the info before assuming.

 

[MountainFreak]

Caveman, sorry but that just isn't true. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and all that. JB knows, or should have known, that a POI can't change a FAR. A POI is just a contact. The POI does have broad authority in certain areas, but it is incumbent on JB to know the limits on that authority. Sounds like the FAA did make some big mistakes, but that does not relieve JB of their responsibility. They knew the NPRM wasn't followed, so they had actual or constructive knowlege the FAR was violated. Just like if your company tells you to violate a FAR, tells you it is legal, and you believe them. When the FAA comes calling you are in just as much trouble as the company.

 

[MountainFreak]

These flights were operated under supplemental flight rules with a relief pilot onboard. Get all the info before assuming.

You are right, I am making assumptions off third hand information. Point taken. However, it sounds like they didn't do this under the Ops Specs, regardless of the supplemental rule they used. Sounds to me like they were trying to make a rule fit, rather than getting the rule changed the proper way. May be extenuating, but clearly the FAA thinks that they (and the POI) were wrong.

 

[Capn Mike]

You are right, I am making assumptions off third hand information. Point taken. However, it sounds like they didn't do this under the Ops Specs, regardless of the supplemental rule they used. Sounds to me like they were trying to make a rule fit, rather than getting the rule changed the proper way. May be extenuating, but clearly the FAA thinks that they (and the POI) were wrong.

If the FAA thought that it was so wrong, then why were there no fines levied against the carrier? Just wondering??

 

[Fins Up]

...Not all the senior blueboys want these transcon turns, it's mostly the navy turds that are trying to suck there way up the company ladder,...

One of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen on the boards.

 

[FDJ2]

It wasn't illegal or noncompliant.

Ummmm, yes it was. JBLU management, if they are the seasoned professionals they claim to be, should have known better. Ignorance of the regulations is not a valid defense.

"Without seeking approval from Federal Aviation Administration headquarters, consultants for JetBlue outfitted a small number of pilots with devices to measure alertness."

"FAA's ultimate conclusion that it amounted to a backdoor effort to skirt safety rules"

Another high-ranking FAA policy maker expressed his displeasure more bluntly: "We don't allow experiments with passengers on board, period."

"The airline says it never intended to mislead anyone at the FAA, and the JetBlue spokeswoman chalked the situation up to "a miscommunication," though, she says, in retrospect the company understands "we have to widen the circle of consultation."

"The FAA reprimanded JetBlue, ordered it to clarify procedures as well as flight manuals and Mr. Ballough personally chastised management."

"Current and former NTSB members say they were told after the fact that JetBlue had done tests on pilot fatigue."

 

[nimtz]

Boy with the winds whacking NYC yesterday, I bet it would of made a great day for data analysis of the affects of a transcon turn. Thanks for the contribution to the profession fellas...

 

[FDJ2]

These flights were operated under supplemental flight rules with a relief pilot onboard. Get all the info before assuming.

Yeah right. So why don't they keep on doing it? I mean its in compliance with the FARs isn't it?

 

[hawk996]

In my 9 months of working at Jetblue, I have flown with pilots that came over from United, Delta, US Airways, TWA, AA, America West, Navy, Air Force, USMC, Army, Coast Guard, and every Regional you can think of. Many of these guys including me were ALPA pilots. If for one second you think this whole pilot group is behind this test or most of the crap that goes on over here, you are dead wrong.

Most of the pilots here want to organize in one way or another. Some of our pilots are waiting for recalls back to the majors and most will take it. This is not my first airline job, and most likely not the last. It is what it is, a pay check!

Every airline has their version of the management kiss @$$'$, one may be sitting next to you at your airline of choice! Don't roll every Jetblue pilot under the bus for the actions of a very small minority.

I commuted down to work the other day and shared a cab with an AA, and DAL pilot. They commuted in from the west coast and were headed on a trip across the pond. Not for one second is this practice safe, but we all do it to ourselves in oneway shape or form, legal or not.

Enjoy your day guys, but every airline pushes us to the limit and its up to us to stop it dead in the tracks. This program was once again flown by a very small minority over here and not endorsed by the whole pilot group!!!!

 

[bluejuice787]

You are right, I am making assumptions off third hand information. Point taken. However, it sounds like they didn't do this under the Ops Specs, regardless of the supplemental rule they used. Sounds to me like they were trying to make a rule fit, rather than getting the rule changed the proper way. May be extenuating, but clearly the FAA thinks that they (and the POI) were wrong.

Mountain Freak you are trying to make an argument without the benefit of fact. You are throwing around terms that you clearly do not understand. For instance you mention that the FARs are law. That is not true. FARs are just that, REGULATIONS. I do not mention this because it is relavant to my argument but rather to point out that you do not know of what you are writing and that you simply have an agenda to bash JB.

As someone mentioned earlier, our point of contact with the FAA is our local FSDO. This means that when we seak approval to operate in a particular fashion it is up to that FSDO to grant us opportunity based upon the current regulations. What the FSDO gave us permission to do is fly those flights as supplemental. Nothing more nothing less.

The article was laid into the lap of these reporters by ALPA. This article is pure perversion and misrepresentation at best.

As an aside, I am not interest in pursuing this flying, however, I am particularly interested in using science to improve our quality of life.

 

[BigMotorToter]

I flew with a guy who was part of test. He was against it from the beggining. Why did he do the test then? We'll, because he wanted to show them the other side of the spectrum, I.E. commute in after being up off and on the night before with his 4 kids, then having to fly the trans con turn.

I think his data alone may have sunk the program.

This was the equivilent of when the FBI placed Agent Johnny Brasco on the inside of the Maffia, which eventually brought the mob down.

So lets not condem all the "volunteeres", for some of them actually did us all a favor by fighting this insane idea in the smartest way possible. From the inside. Pretty smart, wouldn't you say?

 

[fr8doggie]

So lets not condem all the "volunteeres", for some of them actually did us all a favor by fighting this insane idea in the smartest way possible. From the inside. Pretty smart, wouldn't you say?

Pretty smart. Too bad Bob Lavender never heard of that idea.

 

[FDJ2]

As someone mentioned earlier, our point of contact with the FAA is our local FSDO. This means that when we seak approval to operate in a particular fashion it is up to that FSDO to grant us opportunity based upon the current regulations. What the FSDO gave us permission to do is fly those flights as supplemental. Nothing more nothing less.

The FSDO doesn't write the FARs, he enforces them. He does have some wiggle room, but obviously he doesn't have the authority to create his own regulations. JBLU management should have known better, but they were obviously more focused on their own agenda. Luckily the adults at the national level finally got wind of what was happening and they apparently are none too happy with the cavalier attitude of both JBLU management and the FSDO they entrusted to ensure JBLU's compliance with the FARs.

 

[HomerJ]

FDJ2, why such hate for JB? Bashing JB management, from a DL employee, wow. Remind me again how much $ your perfect management team has allowed you to lose in the last 5 years? We were approved for the flights, they happened, and the program will probably never be approved. Let's move on, shall we...

 

[Lake Alice]

You are on a witch hunt and nothing anyone says will matter. You are right, you know all the regs and DL would never do anything like this.

If your FSDO tells you that you can operate in a particular manner then you can do so. They are resposible for approving your ops specs. If they approve you for something you don't second guess them and send your ops specs to another FSDO. But of course you would because you know everything.
I'm not defending the idea of extending our work rules, we work enough, but this is getting a little rediculous.

 

[Chronic Jetlag]

let's reduce duty from 16 to 14 before we even consider increasing flight time.