JBLU 190 Upgrades

[Bavarian Chef]

If there is any truth to the rumor about raising all pay except the 190 capt rates there is gonna be some huge moral problems. I hope that doesn't happen.

CD

I know you meant "morale" problems, just thought this was kinda funny after hearing about those crazy AUS layovers! Now there's a reason to bid the 190!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Trunkdriver

Take the Airbus. I have been with JB for just over one year and was hired after the initial E190 CA bid closed but before the first E190 new hire FO class. Although I am equipment locked for two years I will bid for E190 CA as soon as the fence drops in Oct '07. If awarded E190 CA my decision will unfortunately impact your sit in the right seat of the E190. Likewise, folks like myself will come onboard as lineholding CA's ahead of the current E190 FO's who start upgrading this September. As your seniority builds in the right seat of the A320 your overall QOL will be so much better. I wish you all the best with your decision. Overall I am still very happy at JB although there is room for much improvement.

You know, I am not that far behind you in seniority but the only reason I would bid CA on the 190 would be if the CA upgrade on the 320 goes north of 4 years. But what happens if you upgrade to CA on the 190, as 320 CA upgrades continue and even accelerate -- you might lose out on a chance to upgrade sooner on the 320. It could happen.

Along the same lines, think of all those FOs who put off upgrade in order to bypass JFK reserve only to see 2 poor quarters, CA upgrades slow down and stop and 320 deferrals/sales (meaning no newhires for a while)? They are now FOs for a much longer time. Or what about the dude who gave up on a BOS base so he bid CA on the 190, only to find out a few months later he would have held CA on the 320 ... in BOS.

I say never bypass an upgrade. But I ain't looking forward to leaving the bus.

 

[Grommet]

Well, I took the 190 and am hopeful for an upgrade in under 2 years. Now I'm trying to figure out where to relocate my family. Obviously a domicile would be best, but BOS and NY are pricey for 190 FO pay. Does anyone live in with in the 2 hour reserve response time and if so, where?

 

[Truckdriver]

Well, I took the 320 wait. I just don't want to take the 190 and then regret it and be unhappy while at work. I won't be unhappy on the 320 and it will be better for my family and everyone I work with. I guess I'll know if I should have taken the 190 in about 15 months! In the meantime, I'm making great money while waiting with over 16 days per month off. Plus, I'll have the holidays off if I start on the 320 wheras I would have been the junior boy on reserve over the holidays on the 190. I'm very impressed they even give us the choice and all the HR people are awesome to deal with. I can't wait to get online and settle down for a couple of decades now.

 

[JBPA]

If there is any truth to the rumor about raising all pay except the 190 capt rates there is gonna be some huge moral problems. I hope that doesn't happen.

I agree that the -190 rates are embarassing and need to be raised. However, I'm going to be a little pissed if the -320 rates aren't raised as well.

If we can't please everyone (ideally) then we should at least raise the -190 FO rates. As s%$tty as it sounds, the -190 CA's knew the rates before they bid it.

 

[curtaindriver]

I know you meant "morale" problems, just thought this was kinda funny after hearing about those crazy AUS layovers! Now there's a reason to bid the 190!

Ha ha, you are definetely correct. Morale, I usually pride myself in correct grammar. But, those Austin overnights are fun

 

[Flyboi]

If we can't please everyone (ideally) then we should at least raise the -190 FO rates. As s%$tty as it sounds, the -190 CA's knew the rates before they bid it.

Yup, that sounds pretty s%$tty. Same ol' "f$ck 'em I got mine" attitude known at Airways.

Screw the 190 CA's, they knew going in the pay was crappy, productivity in the dumps, aircraft rollout would be a mx nightmare, trips would be physically exhausting (ever sit more than 3 hours in one of those hard-panned pilot seats?), junior check airmen would be awarded lines ahead of senior CA's (against the language of the original bid package), trips would be non-commutable, promises made in Jan. for better pairings only to go unfulfilled in the summer (can you say "13 hour 4 days" in August?), et al.

Yup, you're right. Screw 'em.

 

[Patriot328]

As s%$tty as it sounds, the -190 CA's knew the rates before they bid it.

The FOs that got hired into the 190 (and chose it, no less) also knew the rates before they said "ok"... might as well leave em alone too, right?

 

[JP4user]

Screw the 190 CA's, they knew going in the pay was crappy, productivity in the dumps, aircraft rollout would be a mx nightmare, trips would be physically exhausting (ever sit more than 3 hours in one of those hard-panned pilot seats?), junior check airmen would be awarded lines ahead of senior CA's (against the language of the original bid package), trips would be non-commutable, promises made in Jan. for better pairings only to go unfulfilled in the summer (can you say "13 hour 4 days" in August?), et al.

Where are all the Blue cheerleaders attacking this guy for telling the truth?

Coupled with those great rates of pay...the 190 sure sounds like paradise at Blue.

 

[Bake]

I have no dawg in the argument over the pay rates, seat locks or for that matter anything to do with JB. As an outside observer, I see the blue koolaid is turning to blue toilet water. Hope you guys can keep it all together, never flown on ya but the crews I have met have been professional. Good luck.

 

[JBPA]

The FOs that got hired into the 190 (and chose it, no less) also knew the rates before they said "ok"... might as well leave em alone too, right?

Ahh, another person with a reading comprehension problem. And honestly, I personally would've done something else (outside aviation) if faced with the decision of flying a 100 seat jet for those rates. Before your panties become further wadded, I'm not knocking you for choosing the -190. Luckily, I have other opportunities that are more lucrative for my qualifications.

Anyway, I was calling it like I see it. Perhaps the company would've been pressured into higher pay rates during fleet launch if nobody bid it. Unfortunately, our low -320 FO pay rates (flat curve) prevented that from happening. Like I said, as a -320 dude, I'm going to be a little peeved if only the -190 dudes get a raise. Like I've already posted, if there's not enough to go around for everyone, then the -190 FO's should get a raise sooner rather than later.

And once again, as s%$tty as it sounds, you did have a choice. Remember? Believe me, it's not a case of "I got mine". It's just the plain truth, and it happens to have a sour taste. This is a good place to work, but I certainly would still be pursuing FEX, SWA, UPS if I were you.

 

[IdlewildClimb]

The pay may suck but it beats working for Hulas. It's worth the paycut.

 

[JBPA]

Yup, that sounds pretty s%$tty. Same ol' "f$ck 'em I got mine" attitude known at Airways.

Screw the 190 CA's, they knew going in the pay was crappy, productivity in the dumps, aircraft rollout would be a mx nightmare, trips would be physically exhausting (ever sit more than 3 hours in one of those hard-panned pilot seats?), junior check airmen would be awarded lines ahead of senior CA's (against the language of the original bid package), trips would be non-commutable, promises made in Jan. for better pairings only to go unfulfilled in the summer (can you say "13 hour 4 days" in August?), et al.

Yup, you're right. Screw 'em.

Sorry Bro, I feel for you. As usual, it's easy to misinterpret an internet post versus the tone/inflection during an actual conversation. I certainly don't wish to 'screw' anyone. Unfortunately my post is the ugly truth. I think the -320 CA rates are low afterall. I do think you are naive if you believed all the propaganda during the 'road shows' prior to the initial bid (I'm a cynic so I was VERY skeptical). Having said that, I think if the company can't raise ALL of the seat rates, then the -190 FO seat should be the first to be increased.

On the bright side, at least you're racking up the 121 PIC on a 100 seat jet (if you need any PIC time).

Good luck....we all may need it.

 

[Patriot328]

Ahh, another person with a reading comprehension problem. And honestly, I personally would've done something else (outside aviation) if faced with the decision of flying a 100 seat jet for those rates. Before your panties become further wadded, I'm not knocking you for choosing the -190. Luckily, I have other opportunities that are more lucrative for my qualifications.

Anyway, I was calling it like I see it. Perhaps the company would've been pressured into higher pay rates during fleet launch if nobody bid it. Unfortunately, our low -320 FO pay rates (flat curve) prevented that from happening. Like I said, as a -320 dude, I'm going to be a little peeved if only the -190 dudes get a raise. Like I've already posted, if there's not enough to go around for everyone, then the -190 FO's should get a raise sooner rather than later.

And once again, as s%$tty as it sounds, you did have a choice. Remember? Believe me, it's not a case of "I got mine". It's just the plain truth, and it happens to have a sour taste. This is a good place to work, but I certainly would still be pursuing FEX, SWA, UPS if I were you.

I don't work for jetblue, so I didn't have to make that choice... I think you missed my point, because I certainly agree with you. I was just saying the newhire FOs knew the pay rates just as well as the Captains did. It will be interesting to see what happens when growth stops and suddenly people are sitting at the 3-4yr mark and beyond in the 190. Pay on that a/c most certainly has to come up, at all longevities in both seats.

 

[JBPA]

I don't work for jetblue, so I didn't have to make that choice... I think you missed my point, because I certainly agree with you. I was just saying the newhire FOs knew the pay rates just as well as the Captains did. It will be interesting to see what happens when growth stops and suddenly people are sitting at the 3-4yr mark and beyond in the 190. Pay on that a/c most certainly has to come up, at all longevities in both seats.

Roger that. I agree with you. At least the -190 CA's can live reasonably well making 80-90K versus the embarassmant of 40-ishK for an FO.

Cheers, JBPA

 

[curtaindriver]

I have no dawg in the argument over the pay rates, seat locks or for that matter anything to do with JB. As an outside observer, I see the blue koolaid is turning to blue toilet water. Hope you guys can keep it all together, never flown on ya but the crews I have met have been professional. Good luck.

Then why post? 3 guys complaining and that constitutes "blue toilet water". Astute observation, bro. I bet I can't find 3 SWA guys who are not totally into the "LUV" thing. Thanks for the offer of good luck, though. That keeps any kind of perceived "cutdown" from really hitting home.

CD

 

[MountyFlyer]

Grommet (sp?),
To answer your question: People have been looking at southern New Hampshire as a place to relocate if basing out of Boston. Real estate is much cheaper there and no state income tax. I do hear that property tax on real estate and vehicles is pretty stiff; so check it out. I have no suggestions if you are trying to be within driving distance of JFK. Good luck with that one. Therefore, I am a commuter and am also a 320 FO that will take the 190 CA upgrade when the fence comes down if the 320 CA upgrades trickle as predicted. Good luck.

 

[Bake]

Then why post? To add fuel to the flame. 3 guys complaining and that constitutes "blue toilet water" Yep, compared to what it used to be like on here you bet it does.. Astute observation, bro. Yep I'm a smart MF> I bet I can't find 3 SWA guys who are not totally into the "LUV" thing. I bet I can Thanks for the offer of good luck, though. That keeps any kind of perceived "cutdown" from really hitting home. Where is Randy Young these days, been trying to find him????

 

[Truckdriver]

Grommet (sp?),
To answer your question: People have been looking at southern New Hampshire as a place to relocate if basing out of Boston. Real estate is much cheaper there and no state income tax. I do hear that property tax on real estate and vehicles is pretty stiff; so check it out. I have no suggestions if you are trying to be within driving distance of JFK. Good luck with that one. Therefore, I am a commuter and am also a 320 FO that will take the 190 CA upgrade when the fence comes down if the 320 CA upgrades trickle as predicted. Good luck.

Yeah, I think there are lots of other guys like you thinking the same thing. That is why I predict 190 upgrades for guys getting hired now to be around 2 years. Just about the time our 14-15 months would come up, the fence comes down and the 320 FO floodgates open and you are stuck as a 190 FO for lots of months. I couldn't live with that and be happy, so I'm waiting for a 320 date and will bid 190 CA after my 2 years on the 320 and when I can hold a line as a 190 CA. I will then hang out there until the 320 CA life looks good for me. JBLU has a quandry here that they will need to deal with and I'm sure they will do a great job fixing the problem. I'm not worried about them fixing the problem nor am I worried about them succeeding as a great airline to work for. I apologize to all for starting this mess, but maybe some people will feel better after they get it all out in the open.

 

[Falconjet]

You will still be bidding for that CA slot behind all the guys you are letting ahead of you and you may never be able to hold those hometown overnights.

Sounds like your mind is made up, but I would get on the property at the earliest opportunity if I were you.

Good luck.

FJ

 

[FlyAuburn]

Sounds like your mind is made up, but I would get on the property at the earliest opportunity if I were you.

Good luck.

FJ

Agree.

All this talk about how first year pay sucks around here and "toilet water". I do agree that it could be better, but how much does CAL pay the first year? What is the average first year pay across the industry? We don't have a singler 2nd year 190 FO in this place and that rate will likely be thrown out the window soon. The first class of FO upgrades is going next month (12 mos) and their salary is about to more than double. I'm bypassing so I can hold 18-19 days off during Nov and Dec. I dropped my crashpad after the first month and have had weekends off since then. Yeah, life sucks arond here.
I have several friends at CAL and I respect the company, so nothing against them. Some dude was crying a river about how JB has screwed him so bad. I'm sure he's not the only one, but kinda of funny how he fails to mention how he got a bonus in April for the hardwork we've put into the 190 launch. The grass is always greener on the other side my friend. If you're a whiner, you will always complain wherever you go - even where the big money is (FedEx and others).
:beer:

 

[Truckdriver]

FlyAuburn,

I agree with you and I am by no means whining about anything. I know I'm probably making the wrong decision long-term, but no long term predictions have ever panned out for me thus far in this industry. I came to my current company when upgrades were 12-15 months and I didn't upgrade for close to 5 years. I wouldn't be happy being an FO making under $40/hr for two years so I'm not going that route and everyone will be happier. Pay raises may come, but they may not with pressure to continue to turn profits the next year. Upgrades may stay around 12-15 months, but when the fence comes down in 2007 they may go to over two years as 320 FO's jump all over it. That fence would come down right when I hit the 13 month mark as an FO and I still predicit that will change everything for the 190 FO's getting hired from here on out.

 

[Fins Up]

You can second guess yourself until the cows come home. It's not going to do you any good. You should absolutely be satisfied with your decision. I lost sleep over it when I was trying to decide. I am very happy on the bus and I'm sure you will be too. Welcome aboard.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Agree.

All this talk about how first year pay sucks around here and "toilet water". I do agree that it could be better, but how much does CAL pay the first year? What is the average first year pay across the industry? We don't have a singler 2nd year 190 FO in this place and that rate will likely be thrown out the window soon. The first class of FO upgrades is going next month (12 mos) and their salary is about to more than double. I'm bypassing so I can hold 18-19 days off during Nov and Dec. I dropped my crashpad after the first month and have had weekends off since then. Yeah, life sucks arond here.
I have several friends at CAL and I respect the company, so nothing against them. Some dude was crying a river about how JB has screwed him so bad. I'm sure he's not the only one, but kinda of funny how he fails to mention how he got a bonus in April for the hardwork we've put into the 190 launch. The grass is always greener on the other side my friend. If you're a whiner, you will always complain wherever you go - even where the big money is (FedEx and others).
:beer:

Good post. Pilots could make 500 an hour and have 30 days off a month, and they would still complain about it.

Good to hear your 190 time ain't as bad as some are making it out to be (or some are leading me to believe).

 

[Dogwood]

Good post. Pilots could make 500 an hour and have 30 days off a month, and they would still complain about it.

Good to hear your 190 time ain't as bad as some are making it out to be (or some are leading me to believe).

Almost everyone I've talked to love the 190. They say: It flys nice, they like the hud, trips are getting better, training is better.

Pay will improve in time. I rode on the jumpseat the other day and was quite impressed. The cockpit workload seemed low and organized.

Very comfortable in the back as well.

If I could afford it, as a new hire I'd start on the 190, upgrade to Cap when the time came, then stay there until I could hold a line as a Bus Cap.

Quality of life is the name of the game at JetBlue.

Just my opinion.

 

[FlyAuburn]

FlyAuburn,

I agree with you and I am by no means whining about anything. I know I'm probably making the wrong decision long-term, but no long term predictions have ever panned out for me thus far in this industry. I came to my current company when upgrades were 12-15 months and I didn't upgrade for close to 5 years. I wouldn't be happy being an FO making under $40/hr for two years so I'm not going that route and everyone will be happier. Pay raises may come, but they may not with pressure to continue to turn profits the next year. Upgrades may stay around 12-15 months, but when the fence comes down in 2007 they may go to over two years as 320 FO's jump all over it. That fence would come down right when I hit the 13 month mark as an FO and I still predicit that will change everything for the 190 FO's getting hired from here on out.

I completely understand your dilemma and wish nothing but luck to you and others that face the same. Actually, I wasn't referring to you (complaining). It was someone else that I was too lazy to quote on his post.
My decision wasn't as hard as yours because the airplane wasn't even here when I was hired, but I did have a major decision to make before showing up to MCO. I'm not sure how we are doing things now, but I was fortunate enough to talk to CD numerous times (PM me and I'll give you his info). He's a class act and helped me out tremendously with my decision. Good Luck.
BTW, enjoy MCO - it's a vacation!
:beer:

 

[pilotgolfer]

Can someone clarify something for me. If a new hire goes to the A320, I know he is locked in for 2 years. At the end of the 2 years, if he were to upgrade to Captain on the E190...is he locked for two years in the E190 or could he move to A320 Captain in year 3 (example only...not trying to guess what the actual upgrade time is on the Bus).

Scott

 

[FlyAuburn]

Can someone clarify something for me. If a new hire goes to the A320, I know he is locked in for 2 years. At the end of the 2 years, if he were to upgrade to Captain on the E190...is he locked for two years in the E190 or could he move to A320 Captain in year 3 (example only...not trying to guess what the actual upgrade time is on the Bus).

Scott

I can't tell you where it's written, but the way some of us understand it, is that you would be locked 2 years after moving to the 190. Does anybody else know different? It makes sense from a cost perspective.

 

[Fins Up]

From what I understand, when you switch planes, 320 to 190 or 190 to 320, you are locked for two years. I believe you could switch back and forth every two years if you wanted to.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Quality of life is the name of the game at JetBlue.

Just my opinion.

Quality of life and pay are linked. I work more (thus decreasing my qol) because the pay is low. That's why premium pay is such a scam for example. "Work more and we'll pay you more" the company says. Premium pay is a direct contradiction of quality of life. The fact that I think about PTO-ing a trip or not because I may lose that time and a half is redicerous.

If I was on second year pay at swa for example, I could work less for the same pay that I would be getting on a 90 hour, second year 320 FO line. That's what qol is all about.

I used to believe in premium pay before I got here, but not so anymore.