JBLU 190 Upgrades

[Truckdriver]

Ok JBLU guys, after all of the initial guys who bid the 190 CA spots upgrade, what do you think the 190 upgrade time will be?? I know some are projecting 14 months, but don't you think there will be lots of 320 FO's that are past their two year equipment lock that will bid the 190 CA positions? Someone told me there was a fence that was created when the initial guys bid the 190 CA spots, can anyone give more details on exactly what that fence protects and how it may effect newhire 190 guys that have been hired as 190 FO's. If I thought I would upgrade in 14 months, I would take a 190 class. If it turns out that the 320 FO's come over after their two years are up, then I would rather wait for a 320 slot. Just looking for some info to make a tough decision a little easier.

 

[Falconjet]

Take the first class offered regardless of the jet. 5 years from now you will upgrade ahead of all the 320 FOs who passed on a 190 class date to wait for that 320 class. Who knows how long they will have to wait on the sidelines for that class date. Things change and the most important thing in the ponzi scheme known as aviation is that seniority number. Don't delay.

FJ

 

[Charlie Brown]

I agree with Falcon. Take the 190. My buddies at B6 seem to think most guys that are 320 FOs will not go to the 190, but who really knows. Keep in mind all the left coast commuters and Florida types will probably stay on the 320 for sure. Plus reserve will be a lot longer on the Bus. I also think if you are flying 85 hours on the 190 vs. reserve on the Bus the pay difference becomes less of an issue.

Best of luck to you. You an XJT guy?

 

[Smoking Man]

There is a fence up until Oct 2007, for the people not under the two year equipment lock. So the real question would be how many non A-320 captains are in that position, and I am sorry to report I do not have that information.

 

[curtaindriver]

seat fence opens up Oct 1. 2007. It's hard to know what will happen. All of the 190 captains I fly with say they are bailing to the 320 once their lock is up (2 years) and after the fence. But, if the pay gets increased then who knows. I was hired end of sept 05, plan to be in class in late october. Who knows if it will be quicker or what.

CD

 

[johnsonrod]

Take the E190... I know a few guys who fly it for B6 and they love it - much nicer than the 145 P.O.S. I currently fly. Plus, do you want to potentially fly one aircraft type for the rest of your career? You can always fly the Bus later..... When you are off reserve and you have a nice schedule you will thank us for helping you make this decision - take the E190.

 

[J32driver]

Heres a 320 FO who plans on jumping ship to 190 Captain when the chance presents itself.

 

[Truckdriver]

Heres a 320 FO who plans on jumping ship to 190 Captain when the chance presents itself.

Yeah, that is what I would do if I were coming up on my two year equipment lock mark. It appears that 320 CA will be closer to 4 years so why not make more money as a 190 CA until you can hold 320 CA. I'm just worried that I'll take the 190 slot and then lots of guys will do what J32 driver is going to do and I'll be stuck as an FO on the 190 for two years. If that is the case, then I would much rather be on the 320. If I wait for a 320 slot, that will be about 70-80 numbers lost and that is alot of numbers to give up.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

seat fence opens up Oct 1. 2007. It's hard to know what will happen. All of the 190 captains I fly with say they are bailing to the 320 once their lock is up (2 years) and after the fence. But, if the pay gets increased then who knows. I was hired end of sept 05, plan to be in class in late october. Who knows if it will be quicker or what.

CD

If the upgrade to CA on the 320 goes much farther north of 4 years, then jb is gonna have some SERIOUS retention issues in the absence of pay and/or benefit increases.

I can come up with a few reasons why I am not looking forward to bidding CA on the 190 in '07 (these are my opinions, btw):

Uncommutable trips
Unproductive trips
Not much in open time
4-6 legs a day
Same she-eyet, same day ("weren't we just in BOS" ... "yeah twice today, already")

That being said, all of the most interesting new destinations, and as far as I know our future destinations, will be coming to the 190, not the 320. So all of those issues I listed above will probably disappear or be mitigated as jb continues to expand its route structure.

Who knows what will happen though. I know a couple of 190 dudes who are gonna bypass CA upgrade for a while and I know quite a few 320 dudes who aren't that interested in giving up FO seniority for a 25 dollar an hour pay raise. That being said, one of the reasons jb has had so many interested applicants is because of the quick upgrade to CA on the 320. Take that away and those 2/3/4/5 (shall I keep going?) FO payrates look absolutely pitiful (swa anyone?). Besides, most koolaid drinkers use the quick upgrade argument to defend low payrates across the board. Yeah, it has been a decent ride for those who upgraded to CA in two years, got off of reserve before the slowdown (now CA reserve in JFK could be as much as 18 months OR MORE, ugh) and are now picking up 120K plus on the Airbus. But for those who were hired in the last year or two, it probably ain't gonna be pretty. I say probably, because I don't think anyone in the company has a clue what's gonna happen next year.

 

[Patriot328]

wow careful there chef.. you might get lynched for posting that kind of rhetoric...

 

[Truckdriver]

So just how uncommutable are the 190 lines??

 

[Bavarian Chef]

wow careful there chef.. you might get lynched for posting that kind of rhetoric...

Look, those are my opinions, but they are not without basis. The 190 bubbas in my class have been more than forthcoming on how their 190 experience has been. I tell you though, I like jb as imperfect as it can be at times. I think we have TWO great products (I commute on the 190 and I dig it). What most likely has soured some of my brethren on their 190 experience has a lot to do with the rollout and the initial issues when the jet IOC'd (to borrow a military phrase). Their experience should not be accepted as a universal experience.

But anyone who reads my post or this thread would know that not everyone has the same experience on either the 320 or 190, nor do they have the same goals/desires/concerns when it comes to upgrade, seniority or the impact of the 2 year fence coming down in 2007.

Besides, a much better thread topic would be why we are putting XM radio on the airbii this fall instead of winglets...

edit: ...or class II EFB's for example. I thought fuel was our biggest concern right now.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

So just how uncommutable are the 190 lines??

I can only tell you what my classmates have told me and that is that many of the trips start early AM. Any 190 pilots care to elaborate?

I ditched my crashpad after 3 months and I haven't seen any noticeable drop in productivity. I want all commutable trips and I have been getting them, so qol for me is on point.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

wow careful there chef.. you might get lynched for posting that kind of rhetoric...

Went back and reread all my posts -- you are probably right. Please no angry PMs from my fellow B6 drivers and while we're at it, please no PMs from the "what more can you tell us" types. I will forward all of them to lowecur, aka Dave Barger.

 

[Truckdriver]

My nightmare is to take the 190 hoping to upgrade in 14 months and that not happening. It would sure suck to get stuck on it for two years making under $40/hr with uncommutable trips. If the pay were around $45/hr and the trips were commutable with a west coast base, then it would be a different story. Also, with all the 320's coming next year, shouldn't reserve for FO's still be around 3 months? 320 upgrades shouldn't go much above 4 years either with all the 320's coming in the next couple of years should they??

 

[RideandDrive]

The quality of life on the 190 sucks. I was told in the newhire packet that reserve would be 0-2 months. August will be 4 months on reserve. Combine that with the pay and the daily airport standby (which the A320 doesn't do) and you have an untenable situation.

We joke now there are two divisions at jetblue. The airbus is mainline and the 190 is the commuter.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

The quality of life on the 190 sucks. I was told in the newhire packet that reserve would be 0-2 months. August will be 4 months on reserve. Combine that with the pay and the daily airport standby (which the A320 doesn't do) and you have an untenable situation.

We joke now there are two divisions at jetblue. The airbus is mainline and the 190 is the commuter.

Sorry dude. Something or should I say many things have got to change for our 190 pilots.

 

[Truckdriver]

We joke now there are two divisions at jetblue. The airbus is mainline and the 190 is the commuter.

Well at least you have a guaranteed flow-through to mainline at your two year mark.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Well at least you have a guaranteed flow-through to mainline at your two year mark.

That's if those dudes make it to the two year mark. And think about how junior they'll be if they go over to the 320. Or maybe not. Maybe a bunch of 320 FOs will go over to 190 CA and be senior to all those brave souls who toughed it out.

So much to speculate, but yes, I have heard the "JB Express" line thrown around the lounge a few times.

 

[curtaindriver]

I bid 4 days backed up by 1 days, or 3,3, or 2, 3 whatever to make it commutable. I think I have one of the toughest commutes, my Aug. sked is 3 commutes...all commutable. 16 days off with 85 hours. No complaints when you become a little bit senior. It's not as good as the bus, no doubt. But, it is improving month by month.
Rumor is pay is increasing, almost guaranteed for the FO's. Who knows when or how much. I heard it straight from the VP of Flt Ops.

CD

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I bid 4 days backed up by 1 days, or 3,3, or 2, 3 whatever to make it commutable. I think I have one of the toughest commutes, my Aug. sked is 3 commutes...all commutable. 16 days off with 85 hours. No complaints when you become a little bit senior. It's not as good as the bus, no doubt. But, it is improving month by month.
Rumor is pay is increasing, almost guaranteed for the FO's. Who knows when or how much. I heard it straight from the VP of Flt Ops.

CD

CD -- so you have to build a line by pairing up trips? I don't call that commutable. Not having a crash pad is the goal of a commuter, because at least for me, my crash pad rent was equivalent to 4 hours of pay.

I do believe however that you are right. New routes, new destinations, more planes and pilots will all contribute to better qol for our 190 dudes.

As for the raise: I heard something weird. I did hear from someone high up that the raise would be across the board (both aircraft), but that maybe, just maybe they wouldn't give the 190 captains a raise. If anyone should get a raise it should be the 190 CA (and if upgrade times go thru the roof on the 320) as well as the 320 FO.

My reasoning is as such: If you knew you were gonna upgrade to CA on the 190 in 12-14 months, wouldn't you want that to be the highest possible salary the company could afford? Meaning, isn't the FO pay on the 190 (while sparse, no insensitivity here) a lesser concern if the company can only give targeted raises? The same goes for 320 FO. If upgrade times steadily climb, there is gonna need to be more incentive for dudes to come to jb when the pay for FOs at places like swa is so high.

disclaimer: I think all pilots at jb are undercompensated and deserve raises.

 

[roadrunnerblue]

Although JB management still thinks it might be net-profitable for 2006, the airline analysts' concensus is that it will be a loss. Question is how much of a loss. Also trends are important: Q2 was +14 mil ; do not think that Q3 and 4 will be better than Q2, so a negative trend from 14 mil. Stock will further deteriorate after a short lived runup earlier this year. Then 2007 will be the decisive year (Ch.11?). Then everything could come to a screaching halt.
My advise: go for the highest payscale you can get.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Although JB management still thinks it might be net-profitable for 2006, the airline analysts' concensus is that it will be a loss. Question is how much of a loss. Also trends are important: Q2 was +14 mil ; do not think that Q3 and 4 will be better than Q2, so a negative trend from 14 mil. Stock will further deteriorate after a short lived runup earlier this year. Then 2007 will be the decisive year (Ch.11?). Then everything could come to a screaching halt.
My advise: go for the highest payscale you can get.

Wow. Thanks. Just put my app in at Home Depot.

Seriously though, with a half a billion in cash and securities, jb could spin its wheels for a little bit longer than 2007.

 

[JP4user]

Went back and reread all my posts -- you are probably right. Please no angry PMs from my fellow B6 drivers.

LOL....even your own don't like hearing such blasphemous opinions. Talk like this will not get your contract renewed.

 

[FADEC]

E190 Upgrade

Trunkdriver

Take the Airbus. I have been with JB for just over one year and was hired after the initial E190 CA bid closed but before the first E190 new hire FO class. Although I am equipment locked for two years I will bid for E190 CA as soon as the fence drops in Oct '07. If awarded E190 CA my decision will unfortunately impact your sit in the right seat of the E190. Likewise, folks like myself will come onboard as lineholding CA's ahead of the current E190 FO's who start upgrading this September. As your seniority builds in the right seat of the A320 your overall QOL will be so much better. I wish you all the best with your decision. Overall I am still very happy at JB although there is room for much improvement.

 

[On Your Six]

Trunkdriver

Take the Airbus. I have been with JB for just over one year and was hired after the initial E190 CA bid closed but before the first E190 new hire FO class. Although I am equipment locked for two years I will bid for E190 CA as soon as the fence drops in Oct '07. If awarded E190 CA my decision will unfortunately impact your sit in the right seat of the E190. Likewise, folks like myself will come onboard as lineholding CA's ahead of the current E190 FO's who start upgrading this September. As your seniority builds in the right seat of the A320 your overall QOL will be so much better. I wish you all the best with your decision. Overall I am still very happy at JB although there is room for much improvement.

The next A320 class for a newhire could be months and months from now due to many newhires bypassing the E190. There will be slow growth on the Airbus going forward due to fewer deliveries too. I say go for the E190 now and get some seniority and enjoy the growth (new destinations, etc.) - the wait for the next Bus class might be too long (maybe into 2007 from what I hear based on all of the newhires before you who also have the Bus in their scopes)...

 

[Truckdriver]

The next A320 class for a newhire could be months and months from now due to many newhires bypassing the E190. There will be slow growth on the Airbus going forward due to fewer deliveries too. I say go for the E190 now and get some seniority and enjoy the growth (new destinations, etc.) - the wait for the next Bus class might be too long (maybe into 2007 from what I hear based on all of the newhires before you who also have the Bus in their scopes)...

Bernice said there will be two 320 classes in Nov and at least one in Dec. If I wait for a 320 class I will be in one of the Nov classes. I figure I would lose about 75 numbers or so to wait. The 320 overnights in my hometown, I eventually want to get to LGB, and the pay and qol is better on the 320. I'm leaning on waiting for the 320 and giving up the numbers for the above stated reasons. Also, my current job is really a great place and I'll have a hard time taking the pay and lifestyle cut to go to the 320 let alone to the 190. 75 numbers makes it very tempting, but I wouldn't be a very happy person to work with if I were to get stuck as an FO on the 190 for two years. Since I already know I wouldn't be happy doing that, I don't want to make a decision now that I know I wouldn't want to live with if current projections don't pan out. I've never seen an upgrade projection actually be what it was projected to be since I've been in this industry. Also, my plan would be to sit as a 320 FO for two years then go over to the 190 for two years as a CA. I have a sneaky suspicion that there are lots of other 320 FO's with the same plan which will push 190 upgrades to 2+ years.

 

[curtaindriver]

Although JB management still thinks it might be net-profitable for 2006, the airline analysts' concensus is that it will be a loss. Question is how much of a loss. Also trends are important: Q2 was +14 mil ; do not think that Q3 and 4 will be better than Q2, so a negative trend from 14 mil. Stock will further deteriorate after a short lived runup earlier this year. Then 2007 will be the decisive year (Ch.11?). Then everything could come to a screaching halt.
My advise: go for the highest payscale you can get.

Are those the same analysts who predicted the USAirways demise? The UAL collapse? So, the stock decling might lead to Ch.11? That's interesting. Anyway, so we can get back to the original thread.......my advice would be to take the 190.

Bavarian Chef, you are right. I have to build commutable skeds. It makes quality of life ok, but there is much room for improvement. If there is any truth to the rumor about raising all pay except the 190 capt rates there is gonna be some huge moral problems. I hope that doesn't happen.

CD

 

[IdlewildClimb]

Go to the Bus. Sounds like you already made up your mind anyway. If your not gonna be happy on the 190, then for the sake of the guys who would have to fly with you take the bus. And overnights at home, LGB down the road, the senority may suck but quality of life will be better from the getgo. Just dont second guess yourself 10 years down the road (oh thats right we'll be gone by then).

 

[Caveman]

Never, ever base an aircraft or domicile decison based on what you hope, think or wish might happen. Whatever you pick, choose it with the assumption that things may happen that will keep you in that domicile or seat a lot longer than you originally thought. Been there, done that and unless you are mentally prepared for a worst case scenario your QOL will suffer dramatically. Based on the info you've given us, take the Bus. You never know what might happen down the road. Better to be stuck in a seat you can tolerate rather than one that's making you miserable. Besides, you could still potentially upgrade to 190 CA at the two year mark if you take the Airbus now. The only difference is you might get to upgrade 6-12 months earlier if you start on the 190.