Hello Carl S. and Becket! Are you there? Come on explain to me why min fleet, scope and min utililization rates are not important. Explain to us how if your beloved pay rates go to a million dollars an hour but we get furloughed how that is good for us (they pay $0 an hour while on furlough). Remember with your nic windfall we 16.5 year people get stapled and then furloughed so your rate of pay argument doesn't mean anything to us but keep saying "integrity". Nice try though! When do you really believe you'll get yout 330 captains bid?
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JAn.9 possible date for merger announcement
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2013 is going to be a rough year for you and your fellow jihadists.
Bringupthebird
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Wait, aren't you telling potential new-hires there is a better chance of the earth colliding with the sun than there is of them going through a furlough during their career with US? So what is it?
Also, what makes you think you hold the keys to the destiny of CoC anyhow? You gave them to Cleary and he snapped them off in the lock because he couldn't figure out how to use them.
P
pave driver
US Airways Pilots, After Long Wait, Want Payoff From AMR Merger
Add CommentBy Ted Reed12/31/12 - 06:20 AM EST
Stock quotes in this article: AAMRQ.PK, LCC
CHARLOTTE, N.C. (TheStreet) -- Since the airline industry began to restructure with a wave of bankruptcies following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, no pilot group has paid a higher price than the pilots of US Airways (LCC_).
Let's take a brief look at the history of US Airways pilots sacrifices.
In 2002, US Airways became the first carrier to file for bankruptcy following the 2001 attacks. The bankruptcy took just seven months and failed to sufficiently reduce costs. The airline filed again in 2004. Facing the possibility of liquidation, pilots agreed to wages that were the lowest for any major airline. Also, the bankruptcy court approved the termination of their pension plan, which was taken over by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which imposed maximum payout levels below what the pilots had expected. By contrast, at American, which did not file bankruptcy until 2011, the existing pilot pension plan was frozen.
In 2005, US Airways merged with America West and emerged from bankruptcy. A bankruptcy deal combined America West's youthful, ambitious management team with US Airways' valuable assets in Charlotte, Philadelphia and Washington National. Leveraging these assets, the America West people took two weak airlines and made one strong one. It began to seem that pilots might reap the benefit of their sacrifices.
But wait. Pilot seniority integration was handed over to arbitrator George Nicolau, who issued a ruling in 2007. It seems fair to say that the ruling was absurd. It followed a conventional pattern for "slotting" pilots from two merging carriers, but it also placed a never-laid-off 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with a few years or less. In fact, the ruling seems to violate ALPA's anti-windfall policy.
It must also be said that the ruling resulted from binding arbitration. Nicolau was jointly selected by pilots from both airlines. One cannot dispute west pilots' contention that "binding arbitration is binding arbitration," although an east pilot once told me that "my first marriage was final and binding too." In my view, rank-and-file US Airways pilots were sold out by hardline leaders who refused to back down from their insistence on unadulterated date-of-hire seniority, even though Nicolau asked them to negotiate and Jack Stephan, who was president of the US Airways ALPA chapter, wanted to. Over the years, multiple non-pilot sources have told me that Nicolau was frustrated by the conduct of these supposed leaders. His ruling seems to reflect that.
After the ruling, the east pilots voted to leave ALPA for the newly created USAPA. With a voting majority, they dragged along the west pilots, kicking and screaming.
The seniority discussion may seem to be a digression, but it is a digression that has consumed US Airways pilot-management relations for five years. The lack of a seniority agreement has enabled management to avoid negotiating a new joint contract that would boost the low pay rates in both existing pilot contracts. Rather, management has focused on seeking a merger, arguing that if US Airways could merge with an airline that has the hubs to support vast international flying, it could pay its employees at the same rate as the three major airlines do.
Now a merger seems almost here. Expectations are high. The west pilots generally want a deal, although one told me the top benefit would be "putting USAPA in the grave." East pilots generally want a deal too. But some worry that so far the airline's bargaining position has not included maintenance of their scope clause, which protects the Charlotte and Philadelphia flying that they see as the principal asset they have been able to retain through their struggles.
Some American pilots, opposed to a merger, have compiled a "date of hire" seniority list that places many US Airways pilots ahead of American pilots. Theoretically, that could enable US Airways pilots to take the best international routes from Chicago, Dallas and Miami. But US Airways pilots have no desire or expectation to take American flying, and they fully expect "fences" to protect both carriers' flying in any merger deal. As one US Airways pilot told me, "We're not looking for a windfall. We never have. We just want to protect what we bring to the party."
For this downtrodden pilot group, that does not seem a lot to ask.
Add CommentBy Ted Reed12/31/12 - 06:20 AM EST
Stock quotes in this article: AAMRQ.PK, LCC
CHARLOTTE, N.C. (TheStreet) -- Since the airline industry began to restructure with a wave of bankruptcies following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, no pilot group has paid a higher price than the pilots of US Airways (LCC_).
Let's take a brief look at the history of US Airways pilots sacrifices.
In 2002, US Airways became the first carrier to file for bankruptcy following the 2001 attacks. The bankruptcy took just seven months and failed to sufficiently reduce costs. The airline filed again in 2004. Facing the possibility of liquidation, pilots agreed to wages that were the lowest for any major airline. Also, the bankruptcy court approved the termination of their pension plan, which was taken over by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which imposed maximum payout levels below what the pilots had expected. By contrast, at American, which did not file bankruptcy until 2011, the existing pilot pension plan was frozen.
In 2005, US Airways merged with America West and emerged from bankruptcy. A bankruptcy deal combined America West's youthful, ambitious management team with US Airways' valuable assets in Charlotte, Philadelphia and Washington National. Leveraging these assets, the America West people took two weak airlines and made one strong one. It began to seem that pilots might reap the benefit of their sacrifices.
But wait. Pilot seniority integration was handed over to arbitrator George Nicolau, who issued a ruling in 2007. It seems fair to say that the ruling was absurd. It followed a conventional pattern for "slotting" pilots from two merging carriers, but it also placed a never-laid-off 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with a few years or less. In fact, the ruling seems to violate ALPA's anti-windfall policy.
It must also be said that the ruling resulted from binding arbitration. Nicolau was jointly selected by pilots from both airlines. One cannot dispute west pilots' contention that "binding arbitration is binding arbitration," although an east pilot once told me that "my first marriage was final and binding too." In my view, rank-and-file US Airways pilots were sold out by hardline leaders who refused to back down from their insistence on unadulterated date-of-hire seniority, even though Nicolau asked them to negotiate and Jack Stephan, who was president of the US Airways ALPA chapter, wanted to. Over the years, multiple non-pilot sources have told me that Nicolau was frustrated by the conduct of these supposed leaders. His ruling seems to reflect that.
After the ruling, the east pilots voted to leave ALPA for the newly created USAPA. With a voting majority, they dragged along the west pilots, kicking and screaming.
The seniority discussion may seem to be a digression, but it is a digression that has consumed US Airways pilot-management relations for five years. The lack of a seniority agreement has enabled management to avoid negotiating a new joint contract that would boost the low pay rates in both existing pilot contracts. Rather, management has focused on seeking a merger, arguing that if US Airways could merge with an airline that has the hubs to support vast international flying, it could pay its employees at the same rate as the three major airlines do.
Now a merger seems almost here. Expectations are high. The west pilots generally want a deal, although one told me the top benefit would be "putting USAPA in the grave." East pilots generally want a deal too. But some worry that so far the airline's bargaining position has not included maintenance of their scope clause, which protects the Charlotte and Philadelphia flying that they see as the principal asset they have been able to retain through their struggles.
Some American pilots, opposed to a merger, have compiled a "date of hire" seniority list that places many US Airways pilots ahead of American pilots. Theoretically, that could enable US Airways pilots to take the best international routes from Chicago, Dallas and Miami. But US Airways pilots have no desire or expectation to take American flying, and they fully expect "fences" to protect both carriers' flying in any merger deal. As one US Airways pilot told me, "We're not looking for a windfall. We never have. We just want to protect what we bring to the party."
For this downtrodden pilot group, that does not seem a lot to ask.
Last edited:
Carl S.
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2004
- Posts
- 481
I am very comfortable in my seat position, be that by slotting, DOH or straight relative position...so the street is probably not in my future. Easties are in epic danager if the NIC. goes into play and the new LCC/AA needs to shrink a little to right size the operations...USAPA NAC is holding this up and 1/9/13 is the next deadline, so no voting for your Daddy or you it looks...Could the GOLD STANDARD be in danger??? Happy New Year to all, enjoy life a bit, this just a hobby to me....
P.S.- Ted Reed writes some good fiction....
P.S.#2- charlie2, I don't want anything to do with PHL or the A330, so relax, I got 20 years to go in this game and enjoy my kids too much to commute...
P.S.- Ted Reed writes some good fiction....
P.S.#2- charlie2, I don't want anything to do with PHL or the A330, so relax, I got 20 years to go in this game and enjoy my kids too much to commute...
Last edited:
Bringupthebird
Grumpy? Who-Me?
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2006
- Posts
- 2,182
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